RM CC4 will not be supported once Microsoft end support for Windows 10 22H2

[David44]

RM are saying (when asked at least, not actually announcing anything as far as I can see) that CC4 will only be supported for as long as Microsoft support Windows 10 22H2 (currently until October 2025). They have also confirmed to me that if Microsoft extend this, RM will continue to support Windows 10 22H2.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle/products/windows-10-enterprise-and-education

 

This may turn in to another "Getting rid of CC4" thread so I'll add a few questions at the bottom but with the news above there may be a few other people interested too, if anyone else is still using CC4 that is.

 

Is the general consensus still to start again with new DC(s) rather than try to remove CC4?

What is the current best practice to build a school network?

What is the best way to build a PC?

What is the best way to assign applications?

Edited April 9, 2024 by 6Foot2

[garethEds]

Hi David,

 

I'm sure if you searched on here there are plenty of people who have done this already with plenty of answers. I remember the time we moved from CC3 to Vanilla 2012. It was a fun time, but it was an LEA network and we were the last school to fight against centralisation. We eventually went over to the LEA.

 

For us this meant:

 

1. New DC - the LEA had central DC servers that every school connected to. During the years, we've been given an on-site DC as well.

2. School Network - we had everything in place. Everything here is wired, but we are moving more and more towards wifi. We have a wifi setup that was funded centrally by the LEA via Welsh Government. It's pretty good. We are Aruba switches across the school (wired and wifi).

3. We have always used MS products and continue to push MDT as the way of building machines. I love MDT and have spent many years perfecting it. Of course, it's not officially supported by MS any more but it still works with some changes. Plenty of help on here and on the Web on how to do this. I am worried for how long it will continue to work but that is a problem for another day. At the moment, we are able to deploy Windows 11 23H2 without issues. Several people here will tell you to use AutoPilot and that cloud is the way forward. Our new network (if/when we move to Hwb Cymru's InTune for PCs) will be cloud and I am working on this at the moment.

4. We currently use PDQ Deploy for deploying applications.

 

All of this is great if putting back an on-site network. Like I say, many will tell you that Cloud is the way forward. This is just my situation at the moment.

 

Good luck,

 

Gareth

[Davit2005]

Similar experience with CC3 to Vanilla. School would not pay for CC so we had no choice. This was back with Windows 7 so a bit of a while ago.

 

We rebuilt a DC without CC components, seem to remember a service account that kept on enforcing CC mgmt tools policies and once we disabled the account we had control. We swapped to MDT, setup scripts to create accounts direct from SIMS, setup printers as scripts, done away with roaming profiles, etc. etc.

 

If you are moving jus list everything that CC does that you will need an alternative for of course if they are saying it will be no more then there will be no choice but to move away.

[TechMonkey]

Personally, I would go build from scratch.

Firstly, you get to know the infrastructure intimately and have a hand in all the decisions and bring everything up to modern standards, rather than be stuck with decisions RM made 10+ years ago. Things like AD structure and domain name.

Secondly, you can be sure there are no hidden surprises waiting to bite you when you least expect it. Old accounts, scripts and the like.

 

Next decision is on-site, cloud or hybrid. That entirely will be based on where you are at. It might be the time to leap out to the Cloud, or just get onto a newer domain doing what you were doing before to be confident to move ahead.

If you go on-site, I would go SCCM for PC building, management and application management.

If you go Cloud, I would say be ready to relax a little and not have the control you are used to.

[Steve21]

RM are saying (when asked at least, not actually announcing anything as far as I can see) that CC4 will only be supported for as long as Microsoft support Windows 10 22H2 (currently until October 2025). They have also confirmed to me that if Microsoft extend this, RM will continue to support Windows 10 22H2.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle/products/windows-10-enterprise-and-education

 

If you get anything official please let us know One last school on RM who don't want to budge currently, so would be nice to give them an "official" push as such

 

Steve

[notsogenius]

We had much the same conversation when we asked about Windows 11 support that it wouldn't be supported beyond the Windows 10 22H2 eol. We're planning to go vanilla in one form or another before the deadline. We did suspect something might be coming given that there haven't really been any CC4 upgrades in a while. I wonder if their Connect on Prem subscription didn't pick up like they hoped and they couldn't afford to support it.

 

I've not seen any official announcements yet either which is odd but maybe they're hoping to get people signed on for a few more years of support even if the product isn't supported.

 

It's a shame - I've worked with CC3 and then CC4 for a fair number of years now (and some vanilla networks on the side) but it has felt like the writing has been on the wall for a bit given RM seem to be pushing their Intune offerings.

 

I won't miss the random CC4 bugs though!

 

To answer the op -

 

1 - Is the general consensus still to start again with new DC(s) rather than try to remove CC4? - I think RM offer a CC4 removal service but I expect it'll be expensive. I suspect we'll be building a new domain as ours has been around since the CC3 days.

2 - What is the current best practice to build a school network? - I'd imagine it'd be some form of hybrid network, we're looking at options at the moment. I get the feeling that the cloud offerings are there but perhaps not as full featured as on prem (more experienced heads will be able to tell more than me!)

3 - What is the best way to build a PC? Depends on the above, on prem i'd imagine it'd be MDT/SCCM (I know MDT is unsupported with Win 11 and SCCM is MCM? MECM?) Or provisioning the device into Intune - again more experienced heads will know more.

4 - What is the best way to assign applications? Either deploying via Intune/cloud console or via local methods e.g Group policy or the myriad of other options

[mikes]

Removing CC4 would be like removing dog poo from chocolate icecream - sure with difficulty it might be possible but would you want it afterward?

I would go vanilla - We ditched CC4 in about 2015, so for us we are still running on site domain controllers via VMware, hybrid with Office 365 - but I know there's all this hoo-haa with new VMware licensing and there is now Intune which I know very little about. We are still on our 2015 setup (just with modern Windows Server and o365 e-mail)

 

I am happy with our VMware Windows Server AD setup / hybrid with office 365 for the most part - although it is confusing for students with us also having Chromebooks so essentially having 2 different ecosystems (e.g. our e-mail is hosted on Office 365 exchange but the students use the same e-mail addresses to sign into Chromebooks - so they will sign into a Chromebook and expect gmail to work natively - which it doesn't - had to disable it and make them go in via webmail.

 

If I were still running a CC4 network in 2024 (and had somehow escaped from Bedlam Hospital in that case) I'd definitely start a total vanilla network from scratch - just follow the latest guidelines. Installing and going native was MUCH easier than going from CC3 to CC4 for us. CC4 just did not work, when it did it was full of bugs that made things very difficult - I literally had to rewrite parts of CC4 to get basic functionality - I had to write a program to make sure file and print maps worked for example, and installing software was a role of a d20.

 

Our NM went from CC3 to CC4 and it was such a disaster, that when I went from CC4 to vanilla after our NM had left, our school actually wrote me a letter thanking me about how smooth the process had been and about how little disruption there had been.

[notsogenius]

At the risk of going off topic - i heard alot about the bad early times with CC4 - ours was pretty stable after patches - it did take a while to get to that stage though! My former role we swerved CC4 from CC3 and went Vanilla after hearing about the experience of other early adopters.

 

Back on topic though - looking at replacements for the functionality of the Management Console - application deployment is one that stands out a bit - I know there are a few options out there like PDQ deploy, Group Policy is doable? Any that others would recommend? Something that shows installed applications within a single application would be a bonus.

[PotNoodleTech]

We dumped RM at the end of CC3 when they basically started failing as a company.

 

Joined LEA vanilla network - reimaged all the PCs etc.

 

Swerved a bullet as the early days of CC4 where "negative effect on teaching and learning" territory.

 

My advice would be either join with your LEA - or if you want to go solo vanilla read up big time or get a company in to help you transition.

[djm968]

I ripped CC3/CC4 and any other overlay on Windows servers out of every School I worked in as soon as I could!

 

1. Look at your current software stack, get rid of anything you don't need and move anything you can to the cloud.

2. If you do need on-prem servers, go vanilla Hyper-V and use a hybrid approach, run 365 for email and SharePoint OneDrive for Storage etc.

 

Have a look at configuration manager for package deployment, device building if you run a Hybrid infrastructure.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/mem/configmgr/apps/deploy-use/packages-and-programs

 

Intune for device management if you can go fully cloud.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/mem/intune/fundamentals/manage-devices

[Norphy]

Removing CC4 would be like removing dog poo from chocolate icecream - sure with difficulty it might be possible but would you want it afterward?

 

How are you defining "removing" here? If you mean uninstalling the CC components from an endpoint and server and expecting them to carry on working, then I would agree with you to an extent. That's not something I would ever suggest doing. However, you can remove the CC components from a domain and keep the domain intact with little to no risk. The way to go would be to deploy a couple of new domain controllers to the AD domain and build an OU structure outside of the RM part of it. Once that's done, you decommission the RM domain controllers and get on with your life. All that you'd be left with would be some dormant schema extensions in your domain that you'd never touch again.

 

Obviously you'd still need to rebuild all your endpoints and deploy new software to replace the RM functionality you were using, but a completely scorched earth approach to removing RM is not required.

[NeoNebula]

Current best practices for creating a school network are a very individual matter, depending on the specific needs and resources of your school. Typically, best practices include using modern network security technologies, centralized management of devices and software updates, and maximizing the use of cloud services for ease of access and management.

Here, the best way to build a PC depends on your needs and budget. You can either purchase ready-made computers from leading manufacturers or assemble them yourself, choosing each component separately. It is important to consider the balance between performance, reliability and cost.

[mikes]

Current best practices for creating a school network are a very individual matter, depending on the specific needs and resources of your school.

 

This actually staggered me when I first started working in a school circa 2008.

 

before that I had worked in a very poorly ran IT helpdesk for an ISP (outsourced, ran by the same people who were responsible for the post office scandal if that says anything...)

I was so sick of everything being ad hoc, mickey mouse, junk, that I quit and when I joined the school I was happy that I'd finally get to work in a well organized machine.

 

I expected: A centralized government set up, with everything done the same by policy in each school (adjustable by needs). A well integrated/organized IT team. A good budget with data, software etc all being accounted for perfectly.

I think you all know where this is going but you can imagine my shock the first week I started working there and found out what it was really like. No centralized solution, infact even no advice from the LEA or even from anyone at the school - the NM was leaving for greener pastures and so did not care, and so I was basically shown my office (which was an old girls toilet complete with toilet paper stuck to the wall), given a screwdriver and a box of old broken computers, told to assemble a workstation to use, given my username and password and basically left to it. I had no idea how anything worked and this was the first time I'd seen a CC3 network.

It was literally sink or swim and the technicians they had hired before me had lasted at most a month.

 

I asked why there wasn't a central government Windows installation with a government classroom MIS, govt GPO's, all that - you get a govt supplied domain set up how they require it and you do the usernames and software installs as you need them. Instead you are literally on your own to do basically whatever you want, as a result I've seen less than competent IT people waste hundreds of thousands of pounds in my local authority alone.

 

Of course now I'm older I know government corruption would basically waste billions and deliver nothing...

[djm968]

The way to go would be to deploy a couple of new domain controllers to the AD domain and build an OU structure outside of the RM part of it. Once that's done, you decommission the RM domain controllers and get on with your life. All that you'd be left with would be some dormant schema extensions in your domain that you'd never touch again.

 

Obviously you'd still need to rebuild all your endpoints and deploy new software to replace the RM functionality you were using, but a completely scorched earth approach to removing RM is not required.

 

That's exactly the way I approached it, however; I often found the server hardware that was running RM was end of life anyway, so new server(s) were required and as you are basically having to rebuild/re-image everything, I usually just created a new domain with new virtual DC's on new server(s) and started from scratch.

Edited April 11, 2024 by djm968

[PotNoodleTech]

Removing CC4 would be like removing dog poo from chocolate icecream - sure with difficulty it might be possible but would you want it afterward?

 

I've never quite seen an analogy regarding dog poo used to such great effect before. You have a way with words that would make a politician blush!!

 

I agree - I would not want to try and run/make a CC4 network with the RM parts forcibly removed. It would end up like triggers broom. It may work - but at some point it's just going to be easier to start from scratch and buy a new broom, especially as brooms have moved on significantly over the last 10 years. My new broom is Titanium with heated handle accessible via a cloud app.

[Dos_Box]

My new broom is Titanium with heated handle accessible via a cloud app

 

Sounds like my new washing machine!

 

ETA: I've still not figured out how to make the app put the laundry in the machine yet.

Edited April 11, 2024 by Dos_Box

[djm968]

I've still not figured out how to make the app put the laundry in the machine yet.

 

I use WiFe 2.0 for that!

Edited April 12, 2024 by djm968

[howartp]

We're ditching CC4 this summer.

 

We are CC4 Matrix so some of the deep integration is already separated, so I don't see the need to rebuild the domain - we're just going to stop the RM services, disable the various RM management/service accounts, then rebuild the PCs onto the existing domain. Will need to look at GPPs to replace some of RM Desktop Agent for mapping printers/drives etc but that's the only core thing i found missing when I started dabbling last year.

 

Current plan is to go to PDQ Smart Deploy for building/deployment but not committed yet - i'm on leave next week (in lieu of working through Easter) then when I'm back it will be full-charge at testing/evaluating.

 

It seems to be that bit of glue between raw MDT and a fully proprietary solution like RM. We're PDQ already so any packages in last 5 years have been built in PDQ not RM, so it's only any legacy packages that we definitely need that will need rebuilding.

[APMerry]

I'm still stuck on a CC4 network and wanting to start fresh, with new servers with a hybrid solution using intune. Can anyone recommend any providers that would be able to help with this? I'm not really sure where to start.

[djm968]

I'm still stuck on a CC4 network and wanting to start fresh, with new servers with a hybrid solution using intune. Can anyone recommend any providers that would be able to help with this? I'm not really sure where to start.

 

Where are you based?

 

I can highly recommend Ergo for support with this.

https://www.ergo.co.uk/support-services/

Edited April 22, 2024 by djm968

[jertsy]

I'm still stuck on a CC4 network and wanting to start fresh, with new servers with a hybrid solution using intune. Can anyone recommend any providers that would be able to help with this? I'm not really sure where to start.

 

Novus are very clued up with this type of thing in my experience, I have used them for a number of years. http://www.novus.co.uk 01260292500.

 

Good luck with it all.

[notsogenius]

Hello Everyone - We have been supporting CC4 for 15 years and are looking to develop this moving forward. We have now developed a Windows 11 Client Pack (in final stages of field trials). If you would like to be involved and require further information please use this link IT Systems

 

 

I have to ask just why?

 

You're basically pushing the can down the road making it a problem for future you (or some other poor network manager finding this in a school they've just arrived in).

 

As a CC4 customer (which the school i support is) you're gonna have to migrate away from it at some point so its time to face the music and get plans in place to do it. I know it's hard and budgets are tight but CC4 is rapidly reaching its end and getting support from a third party developing CC4 packs is frankly daft. You'll be paying money to support an outdated system and basically holding your school back from moving to a more modern solution.

 

Time to close the CC4 loop - i know not everyone is a fan and that's OK. But considering this is such a bad idea.

[Steve21]

I have to ask just why?

 

Support company creates unique patch to keep RM running

Support company makes schools stay on RM with unique patch

Support company makes lots of money as only company who can support it and can charge what they want

Profit!

 

or something like that I assume?!?

 

But yes obviously, everyone should be binning RM asap and looking at a supported setup!

 

Steve

[slugshead]

Cancelled our CC4 renewal last week!

 

SCCM in place, new OU's built, new GPOs built, 2 new DC's and a file server on standby, ready for the summer where it's time to re-image 1,000 workstations. Lets go!

[Miitch]

Hi! We are currently looking into removing RM CC4. Could you recommend any companies i could speak to and get some ideas/quotes? Based in London.

I have spoken with Rm already about their cc4 removal package and going RM unify, i know they do intune but haven't really looked into that option fully. I assume it will cost more and budgets are tight!

We have some fairly old equipment now so will be looking to upgrade the hosts and some other bits however we already upgraded our SAN last year.

Any suggestions for who i could speak to about this would be great!