Are ESS trying to make it harder to migrate away from to SIMS?

[Ditto]

If you are able to share the details, who are your migration partners? If you can't say, can you say if it is one of the main MIS providers or an different third party.

 

It's is for sure the intended outcome ESS were after, the longer term damage will just mount up. What a disservice to the education sector

[drutt]

We're moving to Bromcom, I've also had it mentioned that the API for SIMS is very limited. Essentially the long established process from my understanding was to provide the BAK file and then they would migrate your data from that, but this situation massively complicates things.

[sefton]

Has there been a response from any of the other major MIS providers?

[dmj]

i) granting access to a third party to the SIMS or FMS software, or the SIMS, FMS or SIMS document store

databases or a backup copy of any of these databases in whole or in part, including but not limited to .BAK

files;

 

Create a live read replica: A read replica database isn't the database itself, nor is it a backup copy.

[Dr_Zeux]

We have migrated away from Sims and to Bromcom - have regretted it ever since! Software has so many bugs... Edited February 1, 2024 by dbluston

[Ditto]

We have migrated away from Sims and to Bromcom - have regretted it ever since! Software falls over all the time, and has so many bugs... Stay with Sims!

Whilst I respect the view, there are many on here who regard it as much better than SIMS. The current bugbear is significant and basically is uptime, well documented in another thread. It's interesting that SIMS stance has led to Bromcom migration teams to pause. Seeing IP is not breaching it. Take the music industry - we all hear protected IP. Copying/sampling and the like leads to a breach, not listening to it. In best 4LA traditions, INAL, but I think a good barrister would rip it to shreds. Given Bromcom's capacity to use the legal process, I suspect they have legal people all over this.

[Ditto]

Has there been a response from any of the other major MIS providers?

 

I haven't seen one. @JamesWeatherill, if you are around, is there anything you can say about this topic?

[MartinT]

There is no doubt that SIMS is old, clunky and user deterring. However, it's also stable and it works.

 

We conducted a project over the last year to find a new MIS to replace SIMS. All of the usual suspects came and presented but then we asked them all our 'difficult' questions. Not one came through that test without falling over or requiring even more third-party add-ons than we have already. Bromcom came closest but not close enough.

 

We are remaining with SIMS and trusting that their cloud modules will all come through. I'm relieved as migration & training was looking like a mammoth undertaking and at least we've saved ourselves that task. I will have retired by then so I'll never see a migration away from SIMS, thank goodness.

[sefton]

I've got a new primary to the Trust migrating to Arbor this month, I'll have to get in touch and see what their response is.

[Dr_Zeux]

There is no doubt that SIMS is old, clunky and user deterring. However, it's also stable and it works.

 

We conducted a project over the last year to find a new MIS to replace SIMS. All of the usual suspects came and presented but then we asked them all our 'difficult' questions. Not one came through that test without falling over or requiring even more third-party add-ons than we have already. Bromcom came closest but not close enough.

 

We are remaining with SIMS and trusting that their cloud modules will all come through. I'm relieved as migration & training was looking like a mammoth undertaking and at least we've saved ourselves that task. I will have retired by then so I'll never see a migration away from SIMS, thank goodness.

I wish I had the luxury of being involved in the consultation process as you did! You are 100% correct, and the migration and training has been mammoth, and still ongoing a year and a half later! I have quite a few bugbears about Bromcom, but probably best to keep my opinions to myself. You have made the right decision!

[supportman]

There is no doubt that SIMS is old, clunky and user deterring. However, it's also stable and it works.

 

We conducted a project over the last year to find a new MIS to replace SIMS. All of the usual suspects came and presented but then we asked them all our 'difficult' questions. Not one came through that test without falling over or requiring even more third-party add-ons than we have already. Bromcom came closest but not close enough.

 

We are remaining with SIMS and trusting that their cloud modules will all come through. I'm relieved as migration & training was looking like a mammoth undertaking and at least we've saved ourselves that task. I will have retired by then so I'll never see a migration away from SIMS, thank goodness.

I'm shocked at that. I think I wrote in another thread recently that we got rid of at least 10 3rd party products and saved over £10,000 in the process.

 

I realize that every school is different and has different requirements but both Arbor and Bromcom are lightyears ahead of legacy Sims.

 

Migration and training were literally non issues for us. It was up and running in hours. I thought the same as you though before we did it, was scary but came to nothing. The training was excellent and all online. People had no issue.

Edited February 1, 2024 by supportman

[msi_school]

Where I work there is a clear divide between Data and IT so I am not as in the know as I was about different MISs as I have been. Arbour is the MIS used in the trust and it looks better than SIMS but as it is in the cloud I am very much in two minds about its uptime and responsiveness.

 

On one had it's in the cloud if the internet is working any slowness or downtimes is not an IT issue however, it can make my fingers itch when I cant try any thing to resolve the issue.

[AlistairB1983]

I've got a new primary to the Trust migrating to Arbor this month, I'll have to get in touch and see what their response is.

We sent our data over to them this week, for uploading into the 'test' server to check how our data migrated. Whilst I didn't see the specific email/links regarding the upload, no mention was made of needing to do anything different to what was previously expected.

[localzuk]

There's another angle to this discussion I think. Your contract with your supplier. When signing a new contract, you do not have to simply accept the terms the supplier provide you with - it is a negotiation. Portability of your data at the end of the contract period can easily be included in the contract.

 

It is in the GCloud framework contract, for example. In fact, the explicit "Offboarding" terms in GCloud12 when we signed up to Bromcom state:

 

"The Buyer can export any data at any time using built in functions, and therefore can extract data prior to the contract end.

At the end of the contract, the Buyer's SQL database is offered to the Buyer via a secure web portal, and will be made available for up to 30 days..."

[PotNoodleTech]

ESS are getting desperate now - you'll find the new 3 year cloud contracts they are forcibly locking schools and LAs into will include in the billion pages of T&Cs anti competitive data removal terms as discussed in this thread.

 

The best option is to move right now to Arbor or the like before you get tied in for another 3 years and screwed over.

 

Sadly my LA is falling for ESS's plan hook line and sinker - all 100+ schools signing a new ESS contract in April.....

 

Sadly my school has just been locked into the new contract.

[wellsway]

I'm shocked at that. I think I wrote in another thread recently that we got rid of at least 10 3rd party products and saved over £10,000 in the process.

 

I realize that every school is different and has different requirements but both Arbor and Bromcom are lightyears ahead of legacy Sims.

 

Migration and training were literally non issues for us. It was up and running in hours. I thought the same as you though before we did it, was scary but came to nothing. The training was excellent and all online. People had no issue.

 

We were somewhere in the middle. There were training needs and the migration was a "project" (this was for 15 schools) but neither were onerous.

[MartinT]

We haven't been 'locked into' the ESS contract, and I certainly do deplore their recent sales methods. I have also given Wayne considerable grief for their half-assed early cloud offerings and poor presentations.

 

However, we have simply not found a product with a better fit to our needs out there.

[Primus]

We haven't been 'locked into' the ESS contract, and I certainly do deplore their recent sales methods. I have also given Wayne considerable grief for their half-assed early cloud offerings and poor presentations.

 

However, we have simply not found a product with a better fit to our needs out there.

 

I know every school is different and an MIS is a very important part of lots of workflows etc. but I seriously find that hard to believe.

 

We migrated schools from SIMS, Integris and Bromcom to Arbor as part of a MAT standardisation - Bromcom and Arbor are absolutely streets ahead of SIMS.

 

SIMS' market share dropping to barely 50% shows how much they're in trouble - whether you love SIMS or not you now have to acknowledge the very real possibility of it not existing in the future.

[supportman]

However, we have simply not found a product with a better fit to our needs out there.

 

I would suggest you look again and do a comparison with things like 3rd party tools included. It was clear as day how bad Sims was when we looked at things like parent portals, student portals, comms links, cashless catering, trips, HR modules etc. Sims just didn't have some of them or was very bad at them.

 

I also find it hard to believe any school thinks Sims is a good fit in the year 2024

[mthomas08]

I don't get it.

 

They own the software but the data itself?

 

SQL is simply a table of data and a new MIS tally the SIMs database to their own. Like matching an excel sheet import - am I right in this assumption?

 

How on earth can you act like you own this data?

 

I'm so glad we walked away when we did.

 

Yes I know they don't support it. I didn't ring them once asking for help to migrate any data over, it got left to Bromcom - it's why they allow the testing phase of confirming the migration went well. Gave us time to test it etc.

 

Seriously, they can get .......... beeped.

 

I would love to see this go to court and legally challenge a school over this. This literally forces schools to stay with SIMs if they won - how do you tender the market every 3 years for an MIS if you can't migrate the data.

[ABR82]

There is no doubt that SIMS is old, clunky and user deterring. However, it's also stable and it works.

We conducted a project over the last year to find a new MIS to replace SIMS. All of the usual suspects came and presented but then we asked them all our 'difficult' questions. Not one came through that test without falling over or requiring even more third-party add-ons than we have already. Bromcom came closest but not close enough.

We are remaining with SIMS and trusting that their cloud modules will all come through. I'm relieved as migration & training was looking like a mammoth undertaking and at least we've saved ourselves that task. I will have retired by then so I'll never see a migration away from SIMS, thank goodness.

 

Only you know your school and your rationale, but I can't help but think

 

1. Did you ask SIMS the same questions (without 3rd party software)? I cannot see how they could possibly perform as well as more modern MISs. You admit that SIMS is clunky, old and user deterring. I might add that every school I know of with SIMS has a raft of 3rd party software trying hide/mitigate it's failing and interface on the input and output sides. However good they might be (and many are pretty ropey integrations), a single software solution would work better (unless designed by idiots).

 

2. Nothing is perfect and can do absolutely everything. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good and all that.

 

3. Changing MIS is inevitable. When the new new SIMS comes out (in maybe 2030 or whenever), it will be so different from SIMS 7 that all the migration, retraining, learning, change of processes etc will have to occur anyway. I saw and tried the old 'New SIMS' they demo'd for years (the one they binned in favour of tying people in to multi year contracts for what they already had but with an rdp connection), it seemed pretty good, but it was closer to Arbor or Bromcom than it was to SIMS 7. Staying with SIMS will still be a MIS move when the new one comes out, just in the meantime you'll have a far worse MIS.

 

4. From a personal point of view, doing nothing until after I've retired makes sense. Our migration was smoother than I'd dared imagine and really quite straightforward. I was surprised how easily it went. It was still intensely stressful from a personal point of view, and not something I'd hope to be doing again for another decade or so at least. However, change was the right thing for the organisation, and the personal stress was not unbearable and has resulted in a far better system. I'm several decades from retirement, so perhaps have a very different viewpoint on this!

 

I know several schools still with SIMS, some of which I'd agree with them that their current circumstances are not ones where I'd be looking to change MIS, but all of their data/tech staff freely admit that SIMS is toast and they will need to move away, they're just not yet in a position to do so. I don't know any who have told me that SIMS is the best software.

[simpsonj]

I would suggest you look again and do a comparison with things like 3rd party tools included. It was clear as day how bad Sims was when we looked at things like parent portals, student portals, comms links, cashless catering, trips, HR modules etc. Sims just didn't have some of them or was very bad at them.

 

I also find it hard to believe any school thinks Sims is a good fit in the year 2024

 

Maybe they just want to be able to do assessment without it changing, and breaking, every term.

Or be able to reuse reports they've made last year, without the entire system being broken in an attempt to shift everyone to Quick reports.

Or not have slow down every Monday morning, or at the start of a new term.

Or be able to rely on scheduled reports coming out when expected.

Or be able to merge contacts for students.

Or be able to make a timetable of rooms being used quickly and easily without resorting to a Pivot Tables.

 

There are a lot of things I like about Bromcom, but the nature of it being cloud based has meant they has pumped out a lot of updates, which we have no control over, that has then broken a lot of the functionality that had worked previously. I can see the appeal of a system that has great and flexible functionality that, in the main, rarely gets changed to the point it doesn't work anymore, or having to completely uproot your previous work.

[Dr_Zeux]

I would suggest you look again and do a comparison with things like 3rd party tools included. It was clear as day how bad Sims was when we looked at things like parent portals, student portals, comms links, cashless catering, trips, HR modules etc. Sims just didn't have some of them or was very bad at them.

 

I also find it hard to believe any school thinks Sims is a good fit in the year 2024

 

The problems we've had, lack of support, and constant bugs/glitches in Bromcom - i'd gladly go back to Sims!

[MartinT]

I appreciate the consternation at our remaining with SIMS for the time being. In response:

 

1. Yes, we did ask the same questions of all providers.

2. SIMS is not in the same situation as if it was being selected now. It is our in-place solution with all the reports, Wonde connections, PowerBI reporting, Salamander scripting stuff that we need, the complexity growing with each year. Plus dual 2-week timetables for junior and senior school. It may be clunky, but it works.

3. So many of the providers fell down on a key requirement or needed more third-party stuff to work.

4. Arbor is not a solution for an independent school.

5. I hate an on-premises MIS as much as anyone, and further hate having to support Remote Desktop to make it usable at home.

6. We honestly could not find a product that we felt we could migrate to without enormous disruption to the school and catastrophic loss of functionality.

 

I was gunning for Bromcom, personally, but it still has too many holes.

[Dr_Zeux]

I appreciate the consternation at our remaining with SIMS for the time being. In response:

 

1. Yes, we did ask the same questions of all providers.

2. SIMS is not in the same situation as if it was being selected now. It is our in-place solution with all the reports, Wonde connections, PowerBI reporting, Salamander scripting stuff that we need, the complexity growing with each year. Plus dual 2-week timetables for junior and senior school. It may be clunky, but it works.

3. So many of the providers fell down on a key requirement or needed more third-party stuff to work.

4. Arbor is not a solution for an independent school.

5. I hate an on-premises MIS as much as anyone, and further hate having to support Remote Desktop to make it usable at home.

6. We honestly could not find a product that we felt we could migrate to without enormous disruption to the school and catastrophic loss of functionality.

 

I was gunning for Bromcom, personally, but it still has too many holes.

 

You have made the right decision, as they've taken on so many new schools and now signed a deal to take on NI Education Authority (another 1,100 schools), they really behind with scaling up their staffing (which includes development), so we're constantly faced with software glitches/bugs/outages... And I don't even have a CSM I can feed back to, or escalate anything!