[sims] How late is SIMS 8?

[sonofsanta]

Our new Head has kicked off a process of evaluating our MIS options, and he's come from a SIMS school so I know he's keen on it. I'm massively concerned that we'd be fools to go from the 20-year old FacilityCMIS to the 16 year old SIMS 7 when we're committing for a decade (no way I want to do this project more than that), and as much as SIMS were keen to impress upon us that SIMS 8 is Coming Soon™, I can't help but suspect that "January 2021" was not their first target date. Can anyone who's been talking to SIMS longer let me know how much they've slipped from the first date, i.e. how likely they are to keep slipping? What's the oldest date anyone has been promised for a SIMS 8 launch?

 

(We're a state secondary, FWIW, as I know they're launching with primaries first)

[Boredguy]

Well considering it was meant to be rolled out for primary schools in 2018 according to their own site (https://www.capita-sims.co.uk/resources/blog/next-generation-of-sims) I would imagine we might get it by 2118

[robyholmes]

We invited them to a 'MIS Demo' day/s with our key MIS users and they said 'Sure we'll show you SIMS.net 7... no we could do with seeing your SIMS 8 product. They said 'Its not ready to demo yet'... Take from that what you want.

[sonofsanta]

Well considering it was meant to be rolled out for primary schools in 2018 according to their own site (https://www.capita-sims.co.uk/resources/blog/next-generation-of-sims) I would imagine we might get it by 2118

 

 

They claimed in the meeting that they have got primaries running on it now, and some of them have gone so far as decommissioning SIMS 7 entirely, so they could have managed 2018.

[bobsmith]

there's a lot of other MIS's out there.

[Primus]

Wow is January 2021 their latest target? They're so unbelievably behind, they're going to put themselves in danger of losing their dominant position in the market with the way they're going on.

[mavhc]

I really don't want to upgrade our Server 2008 r2 that's running SIMS, very annoying I can't just switch to web version and kill the VM

[Max_Power]

We were SIMS 7 for 12 years. Then we evaluated MIS's in 2016/17 and saw SIMS 8 back in late 2016 when the rumour was it was being tested in small schools in Ireland, and it was scheduled for 2018 release. We didn't wait to find out and jumped ship.

[sonofsanta]

there's a lot of other MIS's out there.

 

 

Believe me I know. My purpose right here is less "evaluate SIMS 8" and more "provide evidence that they're selling what they ain't got"

[sonofsanta]

I really don't want to upgrade our Server 2008 r2 that's running SIMS, very annoying I can't just switch to web version and kill the VM

 

 

I'd planned to do all this work a year ago, but then the Head up and announced he was retiring so we decided it was unfair to make this decision before the new Head was in place. Cos now I have to move CMIS from its 2008R2 server this month for probably no more than 6 months' life on its 2016 home!

[bobsmith]

CMIS is such an easy MIS to manage from the server side - migrating from 2008R2 to something modern should really not be a chore.

 

If you were talking about SIMS however.....

[supportman]

Next MIS for us will be cloud based, looking to jump this year hopefully.

 

At the moment its a toss up between iSams, Bromcom or running Edulink one over the top of Sims.

 

I don't hold out much hope for Capita Sims 8 looking at their recent company manoevers, they are cutting back hugely on R&D due to the companies debt.

 

See my latest update on Sims 8 here http://www.edugeek.net/forums/mis-systems/182092-sims-8-press-release-30th-march-2017-a-25.html#post1750659

Edited December 4, 2019 by supportman

[sonofsanta]

Following links and Google cache results from @supportman's link above, it looks like the initial release to secondaries was meant to be Autumn 2018. That's enough to prove that they've slipped before, they'll likely slip again, and we can't expect SIMS 8 to be ready (i.e. others have been the guinea pigs) until 2023/24 at the earliest. Cheers all!

[ajp233]

If a primary school currently wants to 'upgrade' to SIMS 8 then Capita will ask how the school currently uses SIMS 7 so they can advise if they'd be a suitable candidate to switch. I think that tells you all you need to know about it's 'out of the box' readiness for primary schools. SIMS 8 for secondary schools is even further down the line.

 

For a cloud based MIS then Bromcom is 'out of the box' ready now for secondary schools...as is iSAMS (although I've only experience of that from an Independent school perspective). I think RM Integris is another cloud based MIS that caters for secondary schools, but I've only got experience of it in primary schools.

[supportman]

Following links and Google cache results from @supportman's link above, it looks like the initial release to secondaries was meant to be Autumn 2018. That's enough to prove that they've slipped before, they'll likely slip again, and we can't expect SIMS 8 to be ready (i.e. others have been the guinea pigs) until 2023/24 at the earliest. Cheers all!

 

Yes their old roadmap said quite clearly the app had slipped at least 2 quarters in development terms. Then there was talk of the entire top team being replaced. Then the outsourcing to India thing. But its now 18 months late and no sign of anything to show for it. They didnt even bother turning up to BETT last year and it looks like they arent showing up again for 2020

 

https://www.bettshow.com/bett-suppliers-list

 

Capita software is simply over engineered, just look at how they did Solus or the horrendously complicated single sign on attempts.

 

There are better options now out there.

Edited December 4, 2019 by supportman

[hardtailstar]

Well considering it was meant to be rolled out for primary schools in 2018 according to their own site (https://www.capita-sims.co.uk/resources/blog/next-generation-of-sims) I would imagine we might get it by 2118

 

Im sure when I was working in primaries in 2014 they were talking about it being a product for release!

[XiJ]

Sims 8 / cloud will never see the light of day.

 

Do your self a favour and move to something from the 21st century. We like arbor but there’s plenty of others.

[synaesthesia]

Im sure when I was working in primaries in 2014 they were talking about it being a product for release!

 

It was being talked about being "not far off" when I worked for them in 2010. There have been enough pinches of salt taken with everything they say to grit the entire road network this winter...

[localzuk]

I'm not wrong am I, thinking that a good programmer could create a brand new MIS in a couple of years on their own if they worked full time? So, 9 years with a team? What are they playing at?!

[Linfit]

I'm not wrong am I, thinking that a good programmer could create a brand new MIS in a couple of years on their own if they worked full time? So, 9 years with a team? What are they playing at?!

 

Their problem is structural. They are simply not geared up to producing agile code quickly with the latest tools - there is too much management and the business is structured in such a way that they can't simply give someone carte-blanche to get on and do it.

 

Moving the coding to India will make things worse - I have been on UAT panels and done beta-testing in the past when most stuff was based in Bedford and the disconnect between the managers/business analysts and programmers view of workflows and how schools work, and what actually happens in schools was astonishing.

 

Personally, I don't think they can retrieve things now. Whenever SIMS 8 becomes more widely available its pretty clear its going to have key functionality missing, and its likely to be clunky and poorly designed, because thats what their software is always like.

I've used SIMS since the days of the DOS based blue menus, but we are academising and likely looking to make a change of MIS, and when the subject comes up I am going to be stongly pushing for us to look elsewhere.

[MartinT]

I've just checked my OneNote notes for SIMS conferences. It was first demo'd at the SIMS Conference in 2017.

 

At the user group meeting last week, Capita confirmed that it's now slated for Q2 2021.

[mavhc]

I'm not wrong am I, thinking that a good programmer could create a brand new MIS in a couple of years on their own if they worked full time? So, 9 years with a team? What are they playing at?!

 

You're probably wrong, which is why all estimates of software creation are wrong.

 

1. Assume cloud only hosted web platform

2. Got to scale to 250,000 registers being taken at almost exactly the same time

3. There's 100 different modules in SIMS

4. No one knows how the old modules work. It was so long ago that everyone's left

5. Need to migrate all historical data

6. While you do this also need to update V7

7. You always underestimate what you don't know, the unknown unknowns

8. Web technologies change rapidly

9. Mythical man month

10. Second system syndrome

Edited December 9, 2019 by elsiegee40

[localzuk]

Except, other MIS's have been created in that timeframe that do all those things?

[mavhc]

Except, other MIS's have been created in that timeframe that do all those things?

 

Maybe, although the public don't know when they were started. However they don't have to replicate all the functionality, just what new customers want, and they don't have to import all legacy data, and don't have to scale as rapidly.

 

Which is why it's usually best to just start a new company when the old one becomes too slow.

[PotNoodleTech]

Everyone else I know wants to move away from it - if your wanting to move towards SIMS then that's pretty much the opposite of most of the rest of the world!!

 

The worst thing for me is Capita have proved they are an untrustworthy company with their behavior in the CTF debacle. I don't trust them as far as I can throw them.