Moving away from CLEO

[b.cline]

We use CLEO here for our internet access, and I'm sure most of you use whatever ISP your county provides.

 

However, I'm not all that happy with CLEO and I'm thinking of shopping around for a proper commercial ISP.

 

Has anyone done this? How has it gone? Are there any pitfalls I should consider? (Like any kind of access that can only be done through CLEO sites or proxies? email addresses? or whatever else?)

 

I would appreciate any edu-geeky thoughts on the subject.

 

Thanks guys (and gals).

[altecsole]

Why aren't you happy with CLEO?

 

We've had no problems with CLEO at all. Problems tend to get sorted quickly and the speed and reliability is great.

 

You're very secure within the CLEO network; are you sure you're ready to take on the 'outside' world?

[Dos_Box]

What seems to be the problem? I sit on a LOT of CLEO meetings and try to represent your views (school network managers) to higher levels. Is the issue with CLEO or with LGfL (Lancashire Grid for Learning)? As we already have a raft of solutions in place to enable external access, remote access and other facilities, all free of charge.

[SteveT]

Another happy with CLEO here! Especially having seen the problems people seem to have with other RBCs!

[Dos_Box]

Indeed. CLEO is often leaps and bounds ahead of the other RBCs, often by the pure dint that we own our network!

100Mbps to the school anyone?

[StewartKnight]

Also, another happy CLEO user here!

[john]

Will chip in and say I wish I had CLEO from talking to Dos_Box it sound heaven the fact they get all this money from Gordon for all this stuff and use it themselves to make the solution rather than the North Yorks idea of spend it on someone else doing the work for them.

[SimpleSi]

We've had no problems with CLEO at all

 

Didn't you try to use the internet in April then?

 

 

Indeed. CLEO is often leaps and bounds ahead of the other RBCs, often by the pure dint that we own our network!

100Mbps to the school anyone?

 

As usual although DB is our leader and pretends to be on our side, he needs to get out of his office more and bring his network speed reader to the majority of schools in Lancs where he'll find statements like this don't bear fruit

 

(athough I've heard in mythical places beyond the rainbow that some schools do have this - of course if your poxy server doesn't let you download more that 100 kbs/sec its a bit of a mute point whether you have 100 or 1.7MBs pipe )

 

To be balanced - CLEO tries - they just don't communicate properly- we have no SLAs - our internet is single ended at point of delivery which is just b&*&%ks in this day and age, we are treated like mushrooms by our so called "help" desk........ [/rant]

 

Don't get me started!

 

regards

 

Simon

[john]

Surely DB will be willing to send one of his slaves out to your site to look into it as I don't believe they are that bad they sound like a listening bunch who want to fix these things

[SimpleSi]

As we already have a raft of solutions in place to enable external access, remote access and other facilities, all free of charge.

 

Sorry - have you actually read the T&Cs - you have to sacrifice your mother before they'll let you have access

 

And you didn't mention that some of the rafts only went into production last week

 

regards

 

Simon

[NewOrder]

I know nothing about the cleo service so will not comment on that but please remember the grass is not always greener on the other side.

 

Generally speaking RBCs will be cheaper and provide other services that commercial organisations will charge a lot for.

[dgsmith]

Mixed views here. We have asked for remote access twice, once for exchange (dec06) and again for RM easylink (few months ago). The exchange request was a little nightmare and really did hold up the installation of our exchange server until CLEO got their backside into gear and actually communicated with our RM engineer properly to deal with it.

 

For the past month, our internet has been VERY UNSTABLE (up, down, slow, painfully slow, down, down... (few days downtime later..... back, but SLOW), up again... you get the idea). Apparently, the receiver on our school which receives the signal was faulty and needed replacing, so we were told it would take 3-5days for someone to come; meanwhile, they couldn't guarantee our access.

The day they were due, we got a call from CLEO, saying they managed to fix it just by changing a few things remotely (it was an interference problem); one would have thought a simple fix could have been investigated weeks earlier. Maybe this isn't the best time to express my views, given the small nightmare recently, but there you go.

 

On the up side, when there is a problem, they are reasonably fast to communicate, and usually endeavour to rectify whatever problem we have, whether that be fault of our own or CLEO. Before this episode and likely hereafter, we achieve reasonable stability and speed always seems to be reasonable as well. I've noticed there is some new filtering in place as of last Monday just gone, so we'll see how that works out

[russdev]

Also the biggest single issue you are going to face moving away from rbc is following.

 

You couldn't legally move away from an rbc to another isp and have service that is 'down graded' which means that need to be on nen and guess what only rbcs are on the nen.

 

Can be very blunt technically moving away is very easy politically it is not and that means head needs to know facts not just technical as he/she will take the flack.

 

Russell

[GrumbleDook]

If you are looking to move away from an RBC there are, as Russ has mentioned, a number of things to take into account that your Head will have to justify, not you ... not because some teachers wants to (who may want to move away because they know best) ... your Head.

 

Firstly, is your web access filtered to a significantly secure level? Are the filters accredited by Becta or the Internet Watch Foundation?

 

Secondly, do you have sufficient edge security? Your own firewall? Do you operate on a 'block all and allow needed' policy on ports?

 

Thirdly, is your mail filtered for spam, abusive content, bullying, grooming, etc?

 

Fourthly, do you know what resources you will no longer have access to? Those provided by your LA / RBC / NEN? Do you have suitable alternatives in mind so that the teachers / students do no lose out?

 

Finally, have you and your Head made representation to your LA / RBC about the poor quality of service? Has there been due process to resolve this situation and you are now moving because you cannot take things any further forward?

 

If the answer to *all* of the above is yes ... then you could move to NTL, Redstone or BT. All of these do decent business packages that come out at reasonable prices for what is effectively a raw pipe. Beware of contention and make sure you get a good look at the SLAs before you sign on the dotted line. Also be aware that some LAs top slice the connectivity funding so you may have to cough up for it out of the school's pocket.

 

I am not trying to put you off ... just help you realise why RBCs exist in the first place ... as frustrating as they can be.

 

Also be aware that if you have a second line (2 meg adsl or similar) as a backup in case of problems with your RBC, some RBCs will not allow this to be connected at the same time as the RBC connection (security breach allowing for routing of internet traffic into the RBC via an unprotected connection.) Please check with your RBC about that.

[spc-rocket]

Also the biggest single issue you are going to face moving away from rbc is following.

 

You couldn't legally move away from an rbc to another isp and have service that is 'down graded' which means that need to be on nen and guess what only rbcs are on the nen.

 

Can be very blunt technically moving away is very easy politically it is not and that means head needs to know facts not just technical as he/she will take the flack.

 

Russell

 

I believe Redstone ticks all the boxes regarding NEN, free access to JANET and yes links to other RBCs. Their solution (includes the bundle of all web filtering, email filtering, leased internet line etc) is not bad and not as expensive as some people make it out to be. If the RBC are only allowed NEN access then how do Redstone get away with it??? I'm sceptical about the whole NEN things being only available within RBC access because clearly that is not the case - yes i have checked and checked and have come up with at least 2 companies who will give you SLAs (to the schools) and the whole educational bundle.

 

On the RBC side of things, i do think they try to provide the best access they can and its not always possible to please everybody. They have to take a lot of things into consideration and sometime the flexibility that we all want may not be possible becuase of various reasons, one of the big one is security.

 

Ash.

[GrumbleDook]

Redstone is one of a number of Becta Accredited Internet Service Providers.

 

Ful details of those that gained accreditation (in 2006) is available here on the Becta site.

 

Full details of what this entails is available here.

 

They have SuperJANET access via their London exchange, but they do not mention what that connection is, what the conditions for using that service are or what the benefits are.

 

They are presently not a member of the UK Access Management Federation, the organisation that is operating the standards for common authentication between NEN services, connectors and providers. Something you need to consider if your school intends to link in with services provided by your LA or regional provider. This can range from hosted VLEs to content resources such as the British Pathé library and Audio Networks.

 

If you are looking for a raw pipe they provide a good service, and this is different to the Becta accredited service ... If you wish to speak to a school using them then let me know and I will give you their contact details.

[SimpleSi]

Ever since I started working in schools (about 6 years now I think) I've heard the "must be able to connect to the NEN" type argument used against those wanting to ditch their RBOC access arrangements but I've not heard of or seen anything concrete that would justify it.

 

Is there something coming "real soon" that needs it?

 

regards

 

Simon

[russdev]

@ashok

 

Think key here is in free access to janet as janet is on the nen....

 

But then maybe you are right as not looked into it fully enough to give 100% answers but woudl make sure that access to nen is written into the contract

 

But as Tony said nen is only one thing to look at..

 

Russ

[spc-rocket]

Ever since I started working in schools (about 6 years now I think) I've heard the "must be able to connect to the NEN" type argument used against those wanting to ditch their RBOC access arrangements but I've not heard of or seen anything concrete that would justify it.

 

Is there something coming "real soon" that needs it?

 

regards

 

Simon

 

This is what i'm trying to find out about the last 3 years and still not near any definitative answer. What i like to know is that if a school goes with another supplier(s) and do not have access to NEN then -

 

- What are they losing out right now?

- Are they in breach of any regulation/requirement by not on or having access yo NEN

- what kinds of stuff is up comming (ie. 1-2 years time) on NEN to persuade headteachers and NM advising headteacher(s) to go with a provider that can allow NEN access?

 

For me the RBCs should be concentrating on delivering core services i.e. three basic ones - 1) Reliable internet access, 2) Reliable web filtering 3)Reliable e-mail filtering.

 

The rest i.e. VLEs can be looked at further down the line if required. The single big grip that i have with RBCs is the reliable internet access and web filtering which is not good enough to support the school's AD or other Directory services account's to make the decision to allow access to site/resource or not. This is the real single sign on (SSO) that needs to happen before the grand and wonderful projects (SSO) to link up RBCs to RBCs and seamless access to resouces across the RBCs.

 

I think there are too many people with idealistic ideas that are trying to get their ideas implemented and this often leads to rushed solutions that are not robust enough and neither does it meet all the requirements of schools.

 

Ash.

Edited May 18, 2008 by spc-rocket

[GrumbleDook]

To some extent i can only truly comment about EMBC and explain about certain Govt targets and how LAs and RBCs are trying to come up with answers.

 

 

Firstly, as much as I would say the 3 cores you are talking about are important, they are almost regarded as second nature now that people tend to ignore them unless there are serious issues. The recent migration from Fujitsu to Synterix has left problems for East Midlands schools. I won't start saying what should have been, what could have been or what there will be right now ... there are enough threads about that. All I can say is that we should take the 3 core services you have mentioned as if they are a basic facility.

 

There are other services that are provided by RBCs that people may not be aware of. Most RBCs provide a 'simple' video conferencing facility to allow for non-h323 traffic as well as access to the Janet Video Conferencing Service for H323 traffic. This is before we even consider basic web hosting.

 

Now we come to Govt agendas. The first one to cover is the Government's target of all students having an online personalised learning space by 2008. This means that for many LAs they will purchase in bulk and should a school want to go their own way or not use the one provided the LA can say they have done their bit ... phrases like 'leading a horse to water...' come to mind ... the natural response from a forward thinking schools might be, 'We have enough water thank you very much, but we are actually after oats now!'

 

From September 2008 all secondary schools will be expected to provide information to parents covering achievement, progress, attendance, behaviour and special needs, on a timely and frequent basis – this should be at least once per term.

 

By September 2010 all secondary schools will need to offer parents online access to this information (including the opportunity for secure online access) wherever are and whenever they want.

 

Primary schools must meet the basic requirement by September 2010 and the online requirement by 2012, though many are already on this journey.

 

The VLE is an obvious vehicle for this ... again ... LAs want to work on this.

 

How do RBCs figure in this? Well ... if the VLE is the vehicle for a number of these targets then the RBC must find ways to make everything fit together smoothly. SSO between the portal login (giving a user access to their RBC provided email, their RBC provided filtering and targeted resources) and the VLE is an obvious first step in this too ... then we have the direct connection between MIS and the portal / VLE to allow for real-time reporting.

 

The VLE then gives rise to the question about how it will be populate with resources ... and those provided by the NEN are an obvious choice in this too.

 

The NEN is presently limited. Resources are there but they have to be commissioned and paid for. Authentication between sections are not done via SSO but by ACLs ... access is granted by being on the right circuits on the right chunk of the NEN.

 

Timescales ... SSO between the Gateway / portal of an RBC and 3rd party VLEs varies from RBC to RBC, and VLE provider to VLE provider but there is now a standard and a process to enable it ... but there are a number of hoops to jump through. That is why some schools find it easier to use an in house VLE. SSO from LAN to the RBC Gateway / portal also varies ... but this is coming too.

 

I wish I could give definitive timescales on all of the above ... hopefully in the next few weeks I will be able to for Northants schools (and hopefuly EMBC schools) ... (or better still ... they will be published by LAs in general).

 

Probably not the complete answer you want, Ash, but I hope it gives some more info.

[spc-rocket]

@Tony,

 

Thanks for all the info you provide its very helpful to myself and all other edugeek members.

 

When i mentioned the three core products, i was referring to these as stanadrd and base line package but unfortunately we have found that some of the 3 core products are not up to the mark and this is seen by customers of various RBCs. I do accept that they are the minimum but what i think the problem is the reliablity of them and that's why i mentioned about concentrating on these a bit more rather than forgetting them becuase they have been implemented and are bog standard stuff offered by RBC.

 

Another grip which i think a lot of feel is that the SLAs are with LA? Now is the LA going to compensate the school for not having internet access for 2 days if that were to happen. Answer is no. they will still change i presume the annual charge for the service. Now weather they charge the company is another matter and if they do then that cost/compensation should be passed on the school. This is why I think it is very necessary to have the SLA's with the schools rather than LAs.

 

 

@Geoff, 100mb to school is fine but this is between the central point and the school right? this does not mean that school is getting 100mb Net access speed. That is fine the schools don't need 100Mb line for net access (not yet anyway) but can i ask from central CLEO servers is it 100mb to everyschool that CLEO covers? or just to concentrators or distribution points etc?

 

 

Unfortnuately there are various threads here that just make you feel is it right to go with an RBC or go alone or with a Becta Accredited Internet supplier i.e. Redstone. I'm not having a go at the RBCs, just stating what the problems with them at present and some feedback in the hope that they incoporate what is said in these forums and take note of it.

 

@Tony

 

You do an excellent job of informing everybody as to what is happening with EMBC and the general details of RBCs, so thank you for providing the information that sometime should come from the LA but doesn't. Good stuff.

 

Ash.

[georgebush]

CLEO in cumbria were always a little funny, sometimes requests were handled fine other times they were ignored or botched. The problem seems to be when you ask for something a bit technical to be done and get bounced around different people.

[GrumbleDook]

@Tony

 

You do an excellent job of informing everybody as to what is happening with EMBC and the general details of RBCs, so thank you for providing the information that sometime should come from the LA but doesn't. Good stuff.

 

Ash.

 

Yeah ... I know communication sucks a bit ... being honest though, this is sort of LA communication ... it is just that we don't have a proper communication plan at the moment so I can get away with talking about things here (in the full knowledge that it is read by other LA staff, by EMBC and by Synetrix ... as well as some Becta bods and a few others).

 

It is almost as official as you get really.

[b.cline]

I'm the one who started this thread, and this is the first chance I have had to read since it began. What a lot of strong opinions!

 

What originally made me ask the question are:

 

I do not like the web filtering we get from CLEO. It is very restrictive on a number of sites that staff really want to use (YouTube for instance) and inadequate for things that need restricting (flash games for instance). To address the second part of the issue, we bought a SmoothWall Network Guardian so we could have control over what is blocked, but this is an industrial-strength web filter which means we don't need CLEO's.

 

I do not like having to do security in CLEO's way. I want to serve my own content on my own web server. If I was a Systems Manager in the "real" world I would open up which ports I want and off I go, but with CLEO (whom we pay to provide US with a service) I have fill in a request form, tell them what I want it for, and then only get a reverse proxy allocation. It's as if I work for them, instead of the other way around.

 

I have a router, I've done a CCNA, I have lots of experience, I have VPN-capable switches, I configure firewalls, I use Group Policies... I've got the skills, but not the freedom.

 

Anyway, the question I originally asked was if anybody has switched, and what their experiences were. Any takers on that question?

[GrumbleDook]

If you were in the 'real world' and connected to a MAN the size of an RBC you would not be just doing it yourself ... you would be filling in paperwork and requesting it too.

 

Unilever, Ford, HSBC, numerous councils and Govt offices, HM Forces ... not to mention large universities (eg Oxford) have a central team that tell you what you can and cannot do. You are an edge site ...

 

This is nothing new. It is just that things are starting to be joined up more and so people clash about it.