Has anyone gone completly linux

[Whitestar]

Hi

 

Long story short. SLT at the school I work are fed up having to pay the stupid Microsoft licencing costs and want to look at the possibility of moving completly over to linux.

 

Has anyone here done that.

If so what distro did you use for the servers and clients.

 

I'd like to set up a little test network to see where any problems may occur and to teach myself how everything works.

 

If anyone could help I'd greatly apprieate it.

 

MArk

[ChrisH]

Search for terms such as Karoshi and the Cutter project.

[Joedetic]

Handsworth Grammar School are a /mostly/ linux site I believe.

 

Handsworth Grammar School - Wiki access <---- you might be able to pull a contact address from there

 

 

http://openhgs.org.uk/it.cgi/MartinWoolley <--- that might help

 

[ctbjs]

This is all well and good that the SLT want to go all Linux because they don't want to pay the licensing fees which btw are exhorbitant. However I have to ask the question, who are they doing this for the school or the students. Seems to me like they are penny pinching in order to preserve their precious budget. Some Linux would be good in a school as would a decent quantity of Apple products but as the predominent OS out there is windows then you will be doing the students a disservice by introducing this solution.

 

I am all form cross platform usage but try and look at the bigger picture of what the "students" will actually be using when they hit the big wide world and apply a comparitive ratio of technology to the school.

 

PS are there any good sites that give guidance on Linux as I have rarely used it but use it for our web filtering.

[eejit]

Microsoft licenses for schools are more than fair in my opinion. I'd even say underpriced - especially for the server stuff.

[kxv2020]

You have to remember that you will have to use Windows if you Sims.net/CMIS.

[localzuk]

This is all well and good that the SLT want to go all Linux because they don't want to pay the licensing fees which btw are exhorbitant. However I have to ask the question, who are they doing this for the school or the students. Seems to me like they are penny pinching in order to preserve their precious budget. Some Linux would be good in a school as would a decent quantity of Apple products but as the predominent OS out there is windows then you will be doing the students a disservice by introducing this solution.

 

I am all form cross platform usage but try and look at the bigger picture of what the "students" will actually be using when they hit the big wide world and apply a comparitive ratio of technology to the school.

 

PS are there any good sites that give guidance on Linux as I have rarely used it but use it for our web filtering.

 

I am quite irritated by this comment, as it seems to keep on being used without any understanding of what schools are for. Schools are there to teach transferrable skills. They teach general topics, not specifics. For example, you wouldn't want Maths to only teach the skills that an average person would use in their lives, so why would you want ICT to teach MS programs simply because there is a good chance those packages will be used if that person goes into a business?

 

Teach them how to word process, not how to use word. Teach them how to create a presentation, not just how to use powerpoint. Teach them the concepts used in every OS in the world (directories/folders, cut/paste, shutting down, searching etc...).

 

Sure, if you are a college and are teaching a 'how to use word' course, use word. But not in year 1 - 13 of their school lives.

[jamesb]

I am quite irritated by this comment, as it seems to keep on being used without any understanding of what schools are for. Schools are there to teach transferrable skills. They teach general topics, not specifics. For example, you wouldn't want Maths to only teach the skills that an average person would use in their lives, so why would you want ICT to teach MS programs simply because there is a good chance those packages will be used if that person goes into a business?

 

Teach them how to word process, not how to use word. Teach them how to create a presentation, not just how to use powerpoint. Teach them the concepts used in every OS in the world (directories/folders, cut/paste, shutting down, searching etc...).

 

Sure, if you are a college and are teaching a 'how to use word' course, use word. But not in year 1 - 13 of their school lives.

 

I agree, wholeheartedly in principle, but unfortunately most of the teaching content for ICT teachers to use relies on certain programs. We do the ECDL qualification, and for that you have to use Microsoft Office (2003 irritatingly enough, which is what's holding us back from upgrading).

 

As to going completely over to Linux all I can say is that while I love the operating system I wouldn't want to be the one to support it. With Microsoft patches come out each week, and I can quickly test those and ship them out, but a new operating system itself comes out once every four years or so. That's not enough for me to worry about.

 

Many of the Linux distros I'd consider for school desktops change version every six months. That's twice a year. Sure much of the stuff may remain the same, but having tried to do something as simple as installing Zimbra on the wrong version number of Ubuntu server I can't help but think what a nightmare support could become when the new distro breaks something vital, simply by renaming a package.

 

I'll happily use it for non-vital servers, in fact I prefer it, or even for certain vital systems such as proxy or e-mail, but I'm not so confident that users would be happy with it. One of the commercial Linux distros would reassure me a little more, but on the other hand then you're paying for it so the whole benefit of it being free vanishes.

[localzuk]

I agree, wholeheartedly in principle, but unfortunately most of the teaching content for ICT teachers to use relies on certain programs. We do the ECDL qualification, and for that you have to use Microsoft Office (2003 irritatingly enough, which is what's holding us back from upgrading).

 

ECDL is not a generic curriculum course (ie. not part of the national curriculum) and as such, that is upto the school to decide whether to offer it. I am referring specifically to standard courses from KS1 - A-Level

 

As to going completely over to Linux all I can say is that while I love the operating system I wouldn't want to be the one to support it. With Microsoft patches come out each week, and I can quickly test those and ship them out, but a new operating system itself comes out once every four years or so. That's not enough for me to worry about.

 

Many of the Linux distros I'd consider for school desktops change version every six months. That's twice a year. Sure much of the stuff may remain the same, but having tried to do something as simple as installing Zimbra on the wrong version number of Ubuntu server I can't help but think what a nightmare support could become when the new distro breaks something vital, simply by renaming a package.

 

Like when MS release a patch which breaks program compatibility? Like SP2? Or SP3? Or Vista SP1? Personally, I'd say managing the upgrades of a set of Ubuntu machines would take less of my time, and cause less trouble than a set of XP machines. Updates are very easy to manage in linux, so long as you know what you are doing and test things properly.

 

I'll happily use it for non-vital servers, in fact I prefer it, or even for certain vital systems such as proxy or e-mail, but I'm not so confident that users would be happy with it. One of the commercial Linux distros would reassure me a little more, but on the other hand then you're paying for it so the whole benefit of it being free vanishes.

 

Why wouldn't users be happy with it?

[jamesb]

ECDL is not a generic curriculum course (ie. not part of the national curriculum) and as such, that is upto the school to decide whether to offer it. I am referring specifically to standard courses from KS1 - A-Level

 

Even in that case a lot of the textbooks refer to Microsoft Office. Not something I agree with at all, and I'm actually in discussions with the Head of IT not only to move away from the ECDL to a proper GCSE course but also to move over to OpenOffice, but the point is that the schools I have worked at generally have office because it is simply easier when the textbooks match the program.

 

If you know of any textbooks or other teaching materials based on OpenOffice instead, I'd love to hear about them.

 

Like when MS release a patch which breaks program compatibility? Like SP2? Or SP3? Or Vista SP1? Personally, I'd say managing the upgrades of a set of Ubuntu machines would take less of my time, and cause less trouble than a set of XP machines. Updates are very easy to manage in linux, so long as you know what you are doing and test things properly.

 

Not a problem I've ever really had with Microsoft to be honest. The service packs are big changes, and sometimes do break something, but I've never had a problem with it. Not only that but if something is broken (and in a way this is the really vital bit) I can phone Microsoft and get a workaround or fix. Linux support, in my experience (the free stuff, not the commercial support) is a little more piecemeal and often means spending hours looking through forums, wikis and similar in the vague hope that someone has had the same error.

 

Why wouldn't users be happy with it?

 

Because they don't know the system, simple as that. I'm currently struggling to get a few people to accept using an EEE PC instead of a full-featured, massive laptop. They're happy with the EEE PC itself, but all want Windows on it (I know that Windows can be put on them, I just prefer the Linux system that's already there).

[localzuk]

Even in that case a lot of the textbooks refer to Microsoft Office. Not something I agree with at all, and I'm actually in discussions with the Head of IT not only to move away from the ECDL to a proper GCSE course but also to move over to OpenOffice, but the point is that the schools I have worked at generally have office because it is simply easier when the textbooks match the program.

 

If you know of any textbooks or other teaching materials based on OpenOffice instead, I'd love to hear about them.

 

Who uses textbooks for teaching ICT? Most materials that are available, I will admit, are produced in .doc's, .xls's, .ppt's etc... but a teacher should be planning their own lessons and creating their own materials anyway. Adapting things for use with the systems in place shouldn't be a huge amount of work. The curriculum for GCSE IT never speaks of Word, Excel etc... it only refers to the generic terms. Mentioning the specific packages in the exams can actually lose you marks. So it is simply up to the teacher to use materials that teach the course they are supposed to be teaching.

 

Not a problem I've ever really had with Microsoft to be honest. The service packs are big changes, and sometimes do break something, but I've never had a problem with it. Not only that but if something is broken (and in a way this is the really vital bit) I can phone Microsoft and get a workaround or fix. Linux support, in my experience (the free stuff, not the commercial support) is a little more piecemeal and often means spending hours looking through forums, wikis and similar in the vague hope that someone has had the same error.

 

You can phone Microsoft? For a giant lump of money you can, yes. Microsoft support is not free. Just the same with Ubuntu. You can pay for support in exactly the same way. Else you can use the documentation available online, just like with Microsoft systems. If it was as simple as just calling MS, I doubt the windows forum on edugeek would exist.

 

Because they don't know the system, simple as that. I'm currently struggling to get a few people to accept using an EEE PC instead of a full-featured, massive laptop. They're happy with the EEE PC itself, but all want Windows on it (I know that Windows can be put on them, I just prefer the Linux system that's already there).

 

People fear change, but that can be eased through properly introducing the systems. Suddenly switching to something is never a good idea. A change to linux would be a long term process, taking a couple of years. It would involve proper training - not necessarily because it is necessary, but because it make staff feel they are valued and are being thought about during the process of change, and that the school isn't just penny pinching.

 

People generally don't like change if it means more work for them, so you have to get the change exactly right.

 

And on the eeePC front. That all depends what you're using them for. Personally, I've introduced one of them to a SEN pupil and they are very happy with it, as are their parents. It wasn't introduced as a 'this is for use for everything related to ICT' laptop, it was introduced for a specific purpose, and training given to the pupil how to use it. I've not had a single complaint about it since giving it to her. I have had 2 other schools ask about it though...

[localzuk]

Also, to keep this separate. If I were to introduce Linux into the school, I would do it via a limited trial, combined with training for staff. I'd do it for machines that are not used specifically for ICT teaching, so probably 1 of our normal ICT suites.

 

That way, you can trial it, without having to switch completely.

 

Also, on the 'which distro' front, I would probably go down the LTSP route, and either use edubuntu or karoshi. Reduce configuration, reduce management etc... Much more sustainable.

[webman]

You have to remember that you will have to use Windows if you Sims.net/CMIS.

 

In a full Linux workstation environment, you could work around this by using a Windows terminal services server hosting SIMS. Until Capita release a cross-platform or web-based edition, that is... Lol.

[Geoff]

Ok, I here's a practical post on how to move (most) of your IT over to Linux.

 

1) Replace your server infrastructure first. Start with easy things like DHCP/DNS, File & Print, etc. You can do this slowly in the background without interrupting your users. Leave a couple of Windows boxes as DCs so you can keep AD, but that's all you need.

 

2) Move to a Thin Client based client/server system. You will obviously need to use 32bit windows servers for this so the software your users need works. However you are free to use Linux on your client devices. Thinstation is a good option here.

 

3) Mission almost complete. You have 2 DCs + X Terminal Servers running Windows and that's all, and your users are none the wiser. You may now spend your days playing Quake on your fault free systems waiting for Microsoft to fall and Linux on the Desktop to be realised....

[rob_f]

In a full Linux workstation environment, you could work around this by using a Windows terminal services server hosting SIMS. Until Capita release a cross-platform or web-based edition, that is... Lol.

 

The 2x ApplicationServer is very good for this. Basically sets up a TS session with the server, but presents the app to the desktop as if it was a local linux app (i.e. not within a window with a windows desktop). Once you've seen SIMS/whatever windows app you need for a particular course running on linux like this the world will look a different place ;-)

 

http://www.2x.com/general/screenshots/thinclientserver/full/2X_TC_Desktop_outlook3.gif

 

You can also use 2x with macs as well i believe:

 

http://www.2x.com/general/screenshots/applicationserver/full/macclientlarge.jpg

[mattstevenson2005]

Come on guys if you think about it really students aren’t going to be using Linux in a small/medium or large business as it’s just not practical, nearly all commercial software out there requires windows.

 

I’m not saying Linux is no good because I’m not, I use Linux here at the school and at home for firewalls and phone systems but in reality Linux is not the most user friendly piece of software and I agree with the posts above if you have a problem you have to search the internet for hours hoping you find someone with the same problem it’s just not practical. Students should learn all different os's but seen as the whole world almost uses windows then that is what they should learn. windows is just great for beginners it’s so user friendly and the problems with services packs and updates are not an issue if you are careful as to using other os's in schools I have no problem we use windows, Mac os x and Linux on our network (Linux for one of our firewalls)

[webman]

Many of the Linux distros I'd consider for school desktops change version every six months. That's twice a year.

 

Then you choose a long-term support edition (eg 8.04, supported for 5 years) and you upgrade as and when you're ready.

 

having tried to do something as simple as installing Zimbra on the wrong version number of Ubuntu server I can't help but think what a nightmare support could become when the new distro breaks something vital, simply by renaming a package.

 

I think there is less chance of problems if you install Zimbra on the correct and officially-support version of Ubuntu (eg. the LTS versions). The LTS versions are supported for a reason.

 

I'll happily use it for non-vital servers, in fact I prefer it, or even for certain vital systems such as proxy or e-mail, but I'm not so confident that users would be happy with it.

 

Back-end stuff is fine. It will run and run and run and the end users will generally be unaware of it unless you make it known. Proxy, email, file serving, backup, web hosting, dns/dhcp, printing - all ideal services to run on Linux and even BSD.

 

One of the commercial Linux distros would reassure me a little more, but on the other hand then you're paying for it so the whole benefit of it being free vanishes.

 

Being free in cost is just one advantage of Linux. Don't forget the free and open nature of Linux. There's no vendor lock-in, there are no CALs, its incredibly stable, secure by default and many better features than the MS efforts.

 

 

 

Microsoft licenses for schools are more than fair in my opinion. I'd even say underpriced - especially for the server stuff.

 

If you consider what Linux and BSD is possible of doing, I think the MS licensing cost is rather expensive for what it is.

Edited May 16, 2008 by webman

[jamesb]

I think there is less chance of problems if you install Zimbra on the correct and officially-support version of Ubuntu (eg. the LTS versions). The LTS versions are supported for a reason.

The correct and officially supported version of Ubuntu is 6.06. I've got it working quite happily there now.

 

The problem with installing on 8.04, as I tried, was to do with a package. Specifically it was because of the package libgmp3 being repackaged as libgmp3c2. The installer failed to recognise this, and after spending three hours searching and trying various fixes I eventually gave up. This kind of highlights my major issue with Linux.

 

Again though, I love the Linux philosophy, and the system itself. I have it running my home fileserver, as well as on my desktop and laptop. But that's because when they break down I have the luxury of trying to find a fix at my leisure, as well as having time to sit and play around with things to try and make something work. When I'm at work and something breaks, if I can't fix it with my own knowledge I need a central respository where I can be almost certain that there's a fix, and failing that I can use one of my TechNet subscription tickets if I absolutely have to.

 

I know that there are wikis and similar for Linux but I've often found that they lack the solutions I'm looking for, or at least that the solutions to problems can be very hard to find.

 

Back-end stuff is fine. It will run and run and run and the end users will generally be unaware of it unless you make it known. Proxy, email, file serving, backup, web hosting, dns/dhcp, printing - all ideal services to run on Linux and even BSD.

 

Which is why I'm planning to put quite a few of our services onto Linux servers. Possibly not the proxy yet, but for E-mail I'm trying to talk them into going with Zimbra over Exchange, and my print server will definitely be a Linux system.

 

Being free in cost is just one advantage of Linux. Don't forget the free and open nature of Linux. There's no vendor lock-in, there are no CALs, its incredibly stable, secure by default and many better features than the MS efforts.

 

And a lot of followers are evangelical. I suppose its just my natural rebellion against being preached to that makes me sceptical of some aspects of Linux.

 

Now, if someone can find me some sort of knowledgebase, or anything else, that gives me a fix for the Zimbra on Ubuntu 8.04 issue (just as an example), and can honestly say that they found it within an hour of searching, I'll quite happily take back my doubts about the support provided.

[Guest blacksheep]

Sims - yeah a web based solution would be good, no more bloatware sims client. Dream on ..

 

Linux solution.. mmm that would be nice would have to intro it slowly just on the server at the moment. In fact as I built the whole network from scratch I have to take some blame for the M$ shop I have now lol

 

M$ license prices for schools/lea are cheap(ish) too much of a way to brainwash staff/students so I doubt theyd miss out on that one! ie. Windows server CALS are £3, Office 2007 is £23 per client. Still adds up though!

Edited May 16, 2008 by blacksheep

[localzuk]

Come on guys if you think about it really students aren’t going to be using Linux in a small/medium or large business as it’s just not practical, nearly all commercial software out there requires windows.

 

I already covered this earlier. We should be teaching transferrable skills, not a single set of programs. And, microsoft slowly but surely losing market share in the desktop market. Last I heard, Apple had about 7% of the market and Linux was about 5%. Why should we teach people things that are going to change over coming years? By the time kids who enter our school here have finished normal school, the world of computing will have changed again, and having taught them how to use office 2003 will have been pointless. Teaching the concepts won't have that problem.

 

Anyway, most people who go through schools will not end up in clerical jobs.

[CyberNerd]

Schoolforge has a list of case studies for linux schools:

Case Studies - Schoolforge-UK

 

I'm wouldn't recommend an instant migration, it should be staged.

 

On the application front: many educational resource providers are starting to make VLE resources that are generally OS independent.

IMO the biggest obstacle is exam boards ( and SIMS/ Crapita), but most courses such as ECDL can be replaced with GSCE equivalent like the ingots:

What are the Ingots? | International Grades - Open Technologies

Terminal servers are good for planning migrations.

 

WRT support, this is linux's greatest advantage. Support from canonical/Redhat is included. With MS you pay for the product, then you pay again for support. Unlike MS, linux support also included the applications.

[Geoff]

Now, if someone can find me some sort of knowledgebase, or anything else, that gives me a fix for the Zimbra on Ubuntu 8.04 issue (just as an example), and can honestly say that they found it within an hour of searching, I'll quite happily take back my doubts about the support provided.

 

Took all of 8 seconds. Googled 'zimbra ubuntu 8.04' and clicked the top result.

 

Bug 23154 - Ubuntu 8.04 - Hardy Heron

[jamesb]

I already covered this earlier. We should be teaching transferrable skills, not a single set of programs. And, microsoft slowly but surely losing market share in the desktop market. Last I heard, Apple had about 7% of the market and Linux was about 5%. Why should we teach people things that are going to change over coming years? By the time kids who enter our school here have finished normal school, the world of computing will have changed again, and having taught them how to use office 2003 will have been pointless. Teaching the concepts won't have that problem.

 

Anyway, most people who go through schools will not end up in clerical jobs.

 

Lets be honest though, by the time they finish school in a few years time most likely the application concepts themselves will have changed. Personally I think the very focus of the IT curriculum is flawed. It shouldn't be about applications, but much more of a focus on fundamentals such as networking, system architecture, interface design and so on. Technical support would be a nice one to add in as well. These are the things that people who want to focus on IT will actually need.

 

As to learning to write a good document, that's English's job. Presentation? Art or graphical design, or any subject really. Excel spreadsheets? Maths. Why should IT have to carry the weight for these subjects while its own topics are ignored?

[localzuk]

Lets be honest though, by the time they finish school in a few years time most likely the application concepts themselves will have changed. Personally I think the very focus of the IT curriculum is flawed. It shouldn't be about applications, but much more of a focus on fundamentals such as networking, system architecture, interface design and so on. Technical support would be a nice one to add in as well. These are the things that people who want to focus on IT will actually need.

 

As to learning to write a good document, that's English's job. Presentation? Art or graphical design, or any subject really. Excel spreadsheets? Maths. Why should IT have to carry the weight for these subjects while its own topics are ignored?

 

ICT is not Computing. We teach people the basics of using computers, not designing things for use on them. And the concepts with word processing, spreadsheets etc... haven't changed in the last several decades, so we can make the assumption that they aren't going to radically change in the next decade. What has changed is the software that is used. MS Office wasn't even the top program for spreadsheets way back when - lotus 123 had more users.

 

Learning to write is English's job, but teaching how to use the tools to do this isn't. Same with spreadsheets and maths/science.

 

IT is all about information, not about the technology it runs on.

[jamesb]

Took all of 8 seconds. Googled 'zimbra ubuntu 8.04' and clicked the top result.

 

Bug 23154 - Ubuntu 8.04 - Hardy Heron

 

So just to confirm, what I need to do is download the source, apply the diff file, and build the source?

 

And I take back some of my concerns about the support issues with Linux, the rest rely on this solution actually working.