Has anyone gone completly linux

[fafster]

It would be interesting to see comparison prices for various courses, such as Zimbra versus Exchange etc.

 

Has anyone completed a linux-oriented course?

[jamesb]

ICT is not Computing. We teach people the basics of using computers, not designing things for use on them. And the concepts with word processing, spreadsheets etc... haven't changed in the last several decades, so we can make the assumption that they aren't going to radically change in the next decade. What has changed is the software that is used. MS Office wasn't even the top program for spreadsheets way back when - lotus 123 had more users.

 

ICT - Information Communication Technology, yes?

 

Computing would be processing data and learning to manipulate it. In DT people are learning, essentially, to design and build things. The purpose of DT is not to teach someone to use a drill, it is to teach them how to put a chair together.

 

So why exactly is ICT expected to teach them how to use something which is unrelated to the actual technology? If its going to be about manipulating data, that's computing. If its going to be about the technology then stick with the name ICT and actually teach them about the technology.

 

As to the concepts of word processing not having changed in several decades, they've only been around for that long. Even with the argument about the first true word processing software giving dates between about 1976 and 1984 word processing isn't that old.

 

Even ignoring that the concept of how to present information has changed massively. Word processors now include such wonderful things as macros, can have scripting, images, animations, pretty much whatever you want. Go back a couple of decades and what you've got is none of that. So yes, concepts do change and so does the way we present information.

 

Learning to write is English's job, but teaching how to use the tools to do this isn't. Same with spreadsheets and maths/science.

 

In that case surely teaching students how to use a data gathering source should be ICTs job. So should teaching someone how to use a calculator, its a computer after all, and a tool, obviously it isn't math's job to teach a student how to use it.

 

IT is all about information, not about the technology it runs on.

 

Then its computing, and not IT.

[webman]

@fafster: Zimbra Collaboration (ZCS) Suite Training.

[fafster]

@fafster: Zimbra Collaboration (ZCS) Suite Training.

 

Ouch. It might take longer, but I think I prefer the self-taught approach. Shame there's no training budget for me...

[Geoff]

So just to confirm, what I need to do is download the source, apply the diff file, and build the source?

 

And I take back some of my concerns about the support issues with Linux, the rest rely on this solution actually working.

 

Yes, or wait patiently for Zimbra 5.5 which is slated to support Ubuntu 8.04. As you can see here:

 

Zimbra Product Portal

[webman]

Ouch. It might take longer, but I think I prefer the self-taught approach. Shame there's no training budget for me...

 

Yes, that's what I did, and the same for CyberNerd and Geoff I think. The community and wiki are fantastic resources.

[CyberNerd]

Yes, that's what I did, and the same for CyberNerd and Geoff I think. The community and wiki are fantastic resources.

 

 

Mostly I'm self taught, but TBH I did some courses linux when I was at Uni, which I blagged for free as i was looking after some linux servers for my college.

Computing Service course descriptions - Unix (including Linux) Systems & Use

[SimpleSi]

Normally I'm one of first in the queue but Geoff's post

Ok, I here's a practical post on how to move (most) of your IT over to Linux.

 

1) Replace your server infrastructure first. Start with easy things like DHCP/DNS, File & Print, etc. You can do this slowly in the background without interrupting your users. Leave a couple of Windows boxes as DCs so you can keep AD, but that's all you need.

 

2) Move to a Thin Client based client/server system. You will obviously need to use 32bit windows servers for this so the software your users need works. However you are free to use Linux on your client devices. Thinstation is a good option here.

 

3) Mission almost complete. You have 2 DCs + X Terminal Servers running Windows and that's all, and your users are none the wiser. You may now spend your days playing Quake on your fault free systems waiting for Microsoft to fall and Linux on the Desktop to be realised....

 

Is one of most informatative, concise, practical I've seen in this forum :D

 

(And way ahead of his others - which are usually concise )

 

regards

 

Simon

 

PS I'd echo that the cost of MS licenses isn't a big issue (IMO they are value for money in schools) but you can save £30/computer just by switching to OpenOffice which is the quickest win on the planet

[localzuk]

Then its computing, and not IT.

 

It's the opposite way round in education. ICT has always been primarily about data and manipulation. Computing has always been more about programming, and the actual nitty-gritty of computers in general.

[Whitestar]

Wow,

 

I never expected an arguement to break out when I asked that question.

 

Initially all I will be doing is setting up a test environment completly separated from my live networks.

 

I think to start I will set up two severs. One will run DNS, DHCP and user auth.

The other one will run LTSP and will be a file server.

 

Then I will have two clients. One will be a thin client and one a fat client.

 

Not sure what Distro to use though. Has anyone used Karoshi. I had a look at the demo and it seemed a bit flaky and the support doesnt seem all that good.

 

I had thought of using OpenSuse for the servers, but I've ready that it can be a pain to set up.

 

For the clients I was thinking of using either OpenSuse or Ubuntu.

 

We run Facility on another network joined by a Router that only allows http traffic to cross the networks.

[localzuk]

I've not used karoshi myself, as I prefer to custom build things exactly how I want em.

 

I'd say use Ubuntu server 8.04 LTS for servers and Edubuntu for clients.

[CyberNerd]

Wow,

 

I never expected an arguement to break out when I asked that question.

 

You must be new here

[kxv2020]

In a full Linux workstation environment, you could work around this by using a Windows terminal services server hosting SIMS. Until Capita release a cross-platform or web-based edition, that is... Lol.

 

Yes... you can use rdesktop.

[dhicks]

Not sure what Distro to use though.

 

Personally, I'm on a virtualise-everything campaign at the moment, for which I found CentOS to be best. It gives you virtulisation/clustering/replication/etc options right on the install screen. Ubuntu 8.04 wouldn't boot for some odd reason on our new servers, although I didn't hang around to find out why. We'll be upgrading our Edubuntu thin-client server to 8.04 soon, so we'll see how that goes.

 

--

David Hicks

[dhicks]

look at the bigger picture of what the "students" will actually be using when they hit the big wide world

 

They'll be using software. Normal users don't sit down in front of a computer to use an operating system, most users don't even know what an operating system is, they simply want to get a bunch of tasks done. In 10 years time, there's a good chance that most software won't even be client-side OS-based, it'll be server-side OS-based and the user will interact with it via a web browser.

 

--

David Hicks

[Whitestar]

Ok so Karoshi is off the list.

 

Karoshi has a lot of potential, but it falls down on a couple major things for me.

First is the lack of online support.

Second is the fact that you can't change use your own IP ranges or hostnames without breaking other parts of the system. I can't believe anyone would design this type of software with such a flaw.

 

Other than that its a really good peice of software with so much potential.

 

Next on the list is Ubuntu Server and clients

after that OpenSuse Server and clients.

[SimpleSi]

I can't believe anyone would design this type of software with such a flaw.

 

AFAIK Karoshi was designed and built up by people like us (e.g not professional software developers) who've done a wonderful job that deserves lots of praise and they were in an enviroment (Direct IP to the internet - not tied to an RBOC dictated IP range) that worked for them.

 

Second is the fact that you can't change use your own IP ranges or hostnames without breaking other parts of the system.

 

You CAN change the ip addresses (check out my posts and Jo's replies on the Karoshi forum about 12-18mth ago) - but it takes a little bit more effort and all it needs is a pre-configuration tool to setup the IP ranges you need but since the developers don't need it - it was never written and tested (AFAIK - times might have changed since I last looked at it)

 

But its a very impressive piece of work IMO

 

 

regards

 

Simon

PS

First is the lack of online support.

 

Is the forum dead??? [EDIT] just checked out site - no forum! and a few other changes that now explains your post![/EDIT]

Edited May 17, 2008 by SimpleSi

[Geoff]

Normally I'm one of first in the queue but Geoff's post

 

 

Is one of most uninformative, concise, practical I've seen in this forum :D

 

(And way ahead of his others - which are usually concise )

 

Thanks Simon, that means a lot coming from you.

[Guest monkeyx]

Who will benefit most a full implemenation of Linux.?Will leaners leaving your courses find it easier to get a job putting open office/Linux on their CV, compared to MS office? I am hoping to work with departments to allow leaners to access multiple OSs/Apps but I am tryng to avoid MACs(LOL)

 

I have implemented several Linux servers, and open source apps on Windows and would love to do more. But I have to balance what is in the best interest of the leaners as well.

 

Also the thought of staff retraining is VERY scarey! I am still trying to extinguish the use Publisher! Never mind scrapping whole of MS office. (LOL)

[localzuk]

Who will benefit most a full implemenation of Linux.?Will leaners leaving your courses find it easier to get a job putting open office/Linux on their CV, compared to MS office? I am hoping to work with departments to allow leaners to access multiple OSs/Apps but I am tryng to avoid MACs(LOL)

 

Why would anyone put 'Office' on their CV unless they had a specific qualification in using it?

 

You would put skills such as 'Word Processing', 'Spreadsheets' etc... Unless you had an MCP qualification. Also, most people leaving school would simply list that they had a) GCSE ICT b) A-Level ICT or c) Key Skills as a qualification, which indicates they have skills in the basics of using an office suite.

 

So put simply, the kids would benefit most, as the money that is wasted on MS software can be put into useful things like more physical machines, or more staff etc...

 

And why avoid mac's? Apple's market growth has been quite amazing in the last 4 or so years...

[torledo]

I think it's important to retain a mix of platforms throughtout the IT environment....unix, linux and windows servers in the back end, linux based thin clients, windows and mac clients.

 

licensing costs is only one part of tco....i think open source applications have come far enough for them to replace windows apps in certain instances. OOo i think is great, gimp is great, and for stuff like web development i think we should be teaching young people standards rather than applications. Final cut and fireworks are the only media apps i consider to be true industry standard, but are they going to be taught at gcse..many of the apple media suites schools have lavished grants on tend to use the piece of kak that is ilife rather the flagship final cut products. Then there's the issue of education specific, years old windows apps

 

i agree with geoff about it being a staged rollout....start off in the back office where users won't notice, in server based computing where the famiiar apps are still presented. And then slowly onto the desktop with specific areas where the move can be made away from provdinign legacy windows apps to specific users ....it's important for any linux depoyment to provide hardware compatability and ease of deployment for admins. Redhat desktop has failed to catch on in business, novell/suse have made a big song and dance about their client server products but i think ubuntu is the only of doing what redhat and suse failed to do in penetrating into the desktop.

 

Whether or not to rollout linux and how far to go with it, really brings up the issue of how we use ICT in the dreaded teaching and learning.....

Edited May 17, 2008 by torledo

[ajtaylor]

Servers first, then desktops. But... I would suggest you try a few users on Linux desktops - the new little laptops from Asus and friends might be a good trial.

 

My only concern with moving to unix based workstations is the restrictions that that can impose upon you - having spent the last 15 years as a UNIX only person, I'm constantly amazed by the wealth of apps out there for Windows to do random little things. Particularly in the education market, you just don't get those on any platform other than Windows (and a little bit of Mac here and there). Either Terminal Server (accessed via rdesktop) or tarantella (browser based), sorry, Sun Secure Global Desktop (grr) would do the job well. Even then, I would guess that you would still need a few machines that are "fat". I've inherited an entirely terminal services based setup, and it sucks because there's no room for flexibility - the users are straight-jacketed. Adding just a roomful of fat clients has made the world of difference.

 

Have you considered SunRays? If you're thinking about going all Linux, then there's really no reason not to go SunRay for most of the school, and keep a few desktop PC's around for anything that requires local hardware or dedicated resources (e.g. Sibelius, or video editing). A 90/10 split should work fairly well, depending on your needs.

 

Andy at the Cutter Project should be able to point you in the right direction on SunRays.

 

I worked on one every day since about 2000 (and supported many customers who ran large installations of them), and I won't hear a bad word said about them. Especially when combined with smartcards (you've got to love the roaming ability, no waiting to "resume your session" or whatever). The cost of ownership is stupidly low, especially if you get the BOGOF edu deal, 5 year warranty, and they use about 4 watts each. Oh, and no moving parts, and very very very little heat. When one of Sun's US campuses switched to them, the rep from the power company rang up and asked if we'd shut the office, because the power consumption graph had fallen through the floor.

[kesomir]

We've just finished a year trial of Linux workstations which was truncated to two terms. Now I used free distributions, using commercially supported systems with support may have different results, but since that's more expensive than using windows...

 

Here's my opinion if of any use:

 

I started with ubuntu feisty on fat clients and edubuntu (feisty) LTSP on a lab of thin clients with a windows terminal server for those educaitonal apps. Migrated to Gutsy (which was a terrible, unstable and buggy release), then to opensuse 10.3 for both fat and thin client ltsp.

 

Pros:

• LTSP is superior to windows terminal services - no issues with sound and clients feel much more like fat clients.
  
• 99% of all computer use on my school network involves either an office application or a web-browser.
  
• SSH, RSYNC, rdiff-backup etc.
  
• There is an abundance of flash based tools for education on the web.
  
• Kids love web based flash games as much or more so than windows games.
  
• Sherston are offering their titles through web delivery.
  
• Trend is a migration from desktop to software as a service.
  
• Standalone clients work wonderfully. Got to love apt (or even yum at a push)
  
• Ease of updating
  
• No threat of viruses / malware
  

 

Cons:

• The linux method of filesharing is awful. NFS is a dog that uses far too much bandwidth and isn't suitable for a large number of clients. A windows like local caching method is in development.
  
• OpenLDAP / NFS central authentication needs a better one click setup - took me a week to get my head round it. (I posted how to guides on setup at ubuntuforums)
  
• SECURE OpenLDAP (TLS) needs better documentation / easier setup. It's too much of a pain so I didn't bother doing it.
  
• Bugs on ubuntu gutsy's nautilus would cause processes to swamp the nfs server and cause it to kernel panic. (This did not happen with feisty btw).
  
• Mounting a remote home folder caused a variety of issues - most notable under buggy gutsy where it would stream hundreds of meg across the network on login - causing client to be unusable for ~5-10 mins.
  
• Lost access to all windows applications
  

 

 

All in all, I spend a lot less time now that the network is back running windows clients (XP professional + terminal server) than when running linux clients. I still run linux servers (although I have to say papercut is well worth the money over pykota - which I also donated to).

 

I run a smoothwall school guardian box, a debian intranet server and a dedicated rented ubuntu web server and it excells at these tasks. All my thin clients are hp t5725s running debian set up to boot throguh to a windows password box for terminal services. I would pay more for linux in these servers than windows but I think that linux needs a bit longer to sort out some of it's networking issues for full deployment.

 

I would use linux for web access stations anywhere without hesitation, and the best thing you can do is trial client stations yourself - the amount you'll learn on the way is phenominal.

[ajtaylor]

The linux method of filesharing is awful. NFS is a dog that uses far too much bandwidth and isn't suitable for a large number of clients.

 

Sorry, but on what are you basing that? NFS is most certainly not a dog, and most certainly works very well for a large number of clients - that's what it is designed for! Having run an NFS server that served 25,000 simultaneous clients, supported many customers with huge NFS deployments (100,000 clients), fixed some bugs in NFS and the Solaris automounter, and done that job from a thin client with my home directory and applications all living on NFS, alongside 45,000 users, I can confidently say that you've got something wrong somewhere - maybe you've got a duff NFS implementation somewhere (I mean in the distro), a badly configured server, or something odd going on with your network.

[Geoff]

I'd suspect a configuration problem. Linux will happily let you set up something like NFS in an insanely bad way. Edited May 18, 2008 by Geoff