NUT Strike 24th April

[Dos_Box]

Unless you haven't hear there is to be teachers strike on the 24th April over pay, and in particular starting pay levels.

BBC NEWS | Education | Teachers vote to hold pay strike

I find some of the arguments being used by the NUT as not very valid. Their argument is below.

 

"Young teachers need to be treated fairly. Paying them at levels which are not competitive with those of other graduate professions and making them unable to take even their first step on the housing ladder will damage recruitment."

 

And from The BBC News site they show this:

 

GRADUATE STARTING PAY

Big employers in the Association of Graduate Recruiters survey for 2008: £24,000

Teacher in England (outside London) and Wales, Sept. 2008: £20,627

London Inner/Outer/Fringe teacher: £25,000/£24,000/£21,619

Teacher in Scotland, April 2008: £20,427

 

The thing is that the big companies offering those wages are probably large blue chip oragnisations, banks and engineering giants after the top 5% of skilled graduates. Not all graduates would expect to earn anything like that in their first few years and teachers pay rapidly increases to a good level after a few years anyway.

Are the teachers right to demand more money?

[petectid]

The thing is that the big companies offering those wages are probably large blue chip oragnisations, banks and engineering giants after the top 5% of skilled graduates. Not all graduates would expect to earn anything like that in their first few years and teachers pay rapidly increases to a good level after a few years anyway.

Are the teachers right to demand more money?

 

You've worked in the public sector for to long Dos_Box, 20 to 25 grand is not going to get you on the housing ladder these days. And after a year most graduates would expect to earn more than this. Their figures are right most graduates will earn between 3 & 5 grand more than a Teacher on appointment, and remember even though their salary increases after a year so does the graduates outside teaching.

[CyberNerd]

Support staff were offered 2.2%, less than the 2.45% that teachers were offered.

I bet that if teachers roles and responsibilities were evaluated using hte same criteria that support staff are evaluated, the teachers would end up starting on about 15k.

[Diello]

Are the teachers right to demand more money?

 

No.

 

1) The starting salary for a new teacher isn't that far off the survey you reference.

2) Public Sector workers get paid less than Private Sector workers. Rightly or wrongly, it's how it's always been.

3) They can quickly build up their pay by taking on additional responsibility for bursaries and TLRs.

4) Although it's an old one - They get a heck of a lot of holiday. The NUT laugh and say "O, that the old false joke isn't it". Problem is, it's not. Yes, teachers do work outside of 8.30 to 3.30 - they do do marking and lesson planning outside of school time. However, not to the extent they portray. Many other professions take work home. I certainly do!

5) They don't work a full day, with the exception of the odd after school meeting or parents evening, most are out the building by 4pm. Any other profession is the same as well.

6) They claim they need the time off because of the "stress". Sorry, teaching is no more stressful than any other job of a comparable nature.

7) Lets give fire fighters & nurses fair pay first - they're saving peoples lives.

8) If you want to give public sector "fair pay", do it for everyone, that includes paying people like us a wage equal to our skills!

[Joanne]

You've worked in the public sector for to long Dos_Box, 20 to 25 grand is not going to get you on the housing ladder these days. And after a year most graduates would expect to earn more than this. Their figures are right most graduates will earn between 3 & 5 grand more than a Teacher on appointment, and remember even though their salary increases after a year so does the graduates outside teaching.

 

me and the boyfriend got on the housing ladder 2 years ago with combined annual wages being only 18k... so to say they can't get on the housing ladder is bull poo... if they didn't take out loans for this that and the other they could afford to save for a deposit.

[CAM]

Support staff were offered 2.2%, less than the 2.45% that teachers were offered.

I bet that if teachers roles and responsibilities were evaluated using hte same criteria that support staff are evaluated, the teachers would end up starting on about 15k.

 

I'm a graduate techie and starting on 15k, that average then? Looking at DB's list makes me feel underpaid...

[Dos_Box]

You've worked in the public sector for to long Dos_Box, 20 to 25 grand is not going to get you on the housing ladder these days. And after a year most graduates would expect to earn more than this. Their figures are right most graduates will earn between 3 & 5 grand more than a Teacher on appointment, and remember even though their salary increases after a year so does the graduates outside teaching.

 

Yes, but in what roles. I have worked in the public sector for quite some time. I find it highly rewarding. But would you list the jobs that you would think a graduate would need to do to start at 24k+?

Would they by any chance by the highly skilled type of role? Engineering? IT? Do all graduates have these skills? I doubt it, and they would earn less than a teachers starting wage.

My point is that house prices should not dictate wage levels. No more than baked beans do. They are a consumer item. A vital one, but an item non the less. Teachers in the north here can afford houses, even after a couple of years teaching. Market forces do dictate wage levels, but only when it comes to in demand skills.

[petectid]

me and the boyfriend got on the housing ladder 2 years ago with combined annual wages being only 18k... so to say they can't get on the housing ladder is bull poo... if they didn't take out loans for this that and the other they could afford to save for a deposit.

 

Two years is a long time in the housing market Joanne, the property I'm selling at the moment has made me more in each year I have lived there than I earn gross currently. You should look to see how much similar properties are selling for know and ask yourself could you still buy?

[witch]

me and the boyfriend got on the housing ladder 2 years ago with combined annual wages being only 18k... so to say they can't get on the housing ladder is bull poo... if they didn't take out loans for this that and the other they could afford to save for a deposit.

 

Not anywhere south of Watford Gap I'm afraid

Quick flick through local property pages shows cheapest property as being a studio flat (bedsit) at £95,000 in the very very worst area of town

Most one bed flats are going for a minimum of £125,000 round here

[petectid]

Market forces do dictate wage levels, but only when it comes to in demand skills.

 

Thats correct Dos_Box but at the end of the day we need teachers in our schools. I do not now if your a graduate or not but I suspect your income is good, after all you left a school as an NM to work for the LA so the job must have been attractive. I suppose what I'm getting at here is that quite a few people who graduated in lets say Geography or History could easily learn and do a job like ours, after all it ain't rocket science (Devils advocate here)

[contink]

Market forces do dictate wage levels, but only when it comes to in demand skills.

 

Erm... wouldn't teachers ... Sorry... Good teachers be one hell of an "in demand" skill?

[Dos_Box]

I'm a graduate techie and starting on 15k, that average then? Looking at DB's list makes me feel underpaid...

 

Yes, you are slightly, but eventually your wages will rise, and if you went out into the private sector, or another more senior role in a different school after 2 years of experience you will be able to command quite a large wage. Part of the reason teachers have got such a good starting wage is that they have massive union clout.

[SimpleSi]

Yes, teachers do work outside of 8.30 to 3.30 - they do do marking and lesson planning outside of school time. However, not to the extent they portray. ...

5) They don't work a full day, with the exception of the odd after school meeting or parents evening, most are out the building by 4pm.

 

IME quality teachers do a full day and more - they spend time in the evenings finalising their plans for the next day and they spend time at weekends planning the week ahead and they spend time in the holidays planning the 1/2 term.

 

I think to do a good job as a teacher demands it. (as that's what I see good teachers doing anyway)

 

This is based on working in 15 schools (inc one secondary) in the last 5 years or so and seeing the variation (and being called out Sunday afternoons to get their PCs back working for planning )

 

regards

 

Simon

[ZeroHour]

BTW all a poll has been added by Dos_box so vote away people

[K.C.Leblanc]

Simple really, if they think they're hard done by because they earn less then someone in the private sector, they should get out of teaching and get a private sector job.

[localzuk]

According to prospects.ac.uk, the average (mean) starting pay for graduates in 2007 was £23k, with the median being £22k.

 

That is not *hugely* above the £20k starting for a teacher, considering the amount of holiday they get, the pension they get, the fact that their conditions are secure whether they move within an LEA or elsewhere in the UK to another LEA etc...

 

There is not a job in the world that is as well catered for as a teacher.

 

They get a fair wage for their job. But they should get a yearly pay increase, as should all public sector staff, that is inline with the RPI.

[rhyds]

I'm a graduate techie and starting on 15k, that average then? Looking at DB's list makes me feel underpaid...

 

I'm in the same boat, but on even less money. My plan is to stick it out for a few years before moving on armed with experience and the hard-baked cynicism (sp?) of the true IT tech.

[button_ripple]

If the teachers here come whining to me about small pay and sh** hours, i merely point out that i am on less than 9k a year, and have never gone home at the end of my hours!

 

Funny how quickly they shut up!

 

Personally i don't see why they are demanding more money, we have 6 pieces of software here that does all of the planning and paperwork for them. Reports are automatically written by the computers so they aren't spending hours on them. There are sooooo many lesson's online for teachers to use.

 

They only need to sit in front of the class now instead of teaching them!

 

(this is not teacher bashing it is merely an observation!)

[Dos_Box]

Thats the way to do it (as Punch would say). Simply expecting a high wage with zero real world experience is not how it works. When I started in IT in 2000 my wage was about 13k this rose to 19k within 3 years. Now, with years of experiance under my belt and a job change (promotion) I'm on quite a bit more than that. I don't think the 'I'm newly qualified at job x therefore I should earn tons' washes in the real world.

[e_g_r]

If they want better salaries then let them have normal holidays like the rest of use full timers. Them when the kids are off they can have their meetings, do planning, have INSET days etc..

 

Trouble with that plan is they'd get under our feet.

[jcollings]

IME quality teachers do a full day and more - they spend time in the evenings finalising their plans for the next day and they spend time at weekends planning the week ahead and they spend time in the holidays planning the 1/2 term.

 

I think to do a good job as a teacher demands it. (as that's what I see good teachers doing anyway)

 

This is based on working in 15 schools (inc one secondary) in the last 5 years or so and seeing the variation (and being called out Sunday afternoons to get their PCs back working for planning )

 

regards

 

Simon

 

I have to agree with you. I'm not saying all teachers do this but certainly the good ones do and I think that's the majority. We all know annoying staff who rub us up the wrong way but teaching day in day out - 5 days a week is bl**dy hard work and it's a different kind of work than we do. I also know nurses and police etc work hard to and don't get the hols but that's not the point. I don't think the current pay claim is sensible or just but let's not pretend they don't work hard.

 

We want well paid, motivated teachers who care about what they do teaching our kids and for that we need to pay them well.

[enjay]

Teachers in the north here can afford houses, even after a couple of years teaching.

 

Perhaps true, but the ones in the south are stuffed. A one-bed flat in Reading will set you back £130k+, so a teacher on £20k would need over 6x their salary for a mortgage. Even one who has been working a good few years and climbed up to £25k is still needing over 5x salary. Very few banks (if any at all) would go near lending that.

[petectid]

Perhaps true, but the ones in the south are stuffed. A one-bed flat in Reading will set you back £130k+, so a teacher on £20k would need over 6x their salary for a mortgage. Even one who has been working a good few years and climbed up to £25k is still needing over 5x salary. Very few banks (if any at all) would go near lending that.

 

Its no different in the north, Lancashire has some of the highest property prices in the UK now, its not cheap.

[jcollings]

Its no different in the north, Lancashire has some of the highest property prices in the UK now, its not cheap.

 

I was just about to say the same - I live in Kendal it's feckin dear here to.

[bossman]

Thats correct Dos_Box but at the end of the day we need teachers in our schools. I do not now if your a graduate or not but I suspect your income is good, after all you left a school as an NM to work for the LA so the job must have been attractive. I suppose what I'm getting at here is that quite a few people who graduated in lets say Geography or History could easily learn and do a job like ours, after all it ain't rocket science (Devils advocate here)

 

@petectid:

I don't think it is as easy as you make out and i feel quite annoyed by your remarks.

I have a degree and other professional qualifications far more than some of the teachers at this school but i find i am paid a great deal less per annum for far more work.

If it was that easy for graduates then why are there not more of them entering the IT market I'll tell you why because it would be too much like hard work for them and not enough pay.