Pupil Discipline

[laserblazer]

This really gets me. One unruly kid is allowed to wreck a complete lesson. We have a removal policy. As a last resort, a teacher can send a pupil to another class. ie. move the problem. It is so pathetic that nobody uses it. Sending a pupil out of class is seen by SMT as a reflection on the teacher's abilities.

 

I think there is a very simple and cost-effective solution. There must be countless Armed Forces NCOs who are retiring. These guys have made a career in keeping unruly guys in check and maintaining the highest level of discipline.

 

So, if each school employs one of these guys, unruly kids can be sent to them. A programme could be developed to try and help them with their anti-social problems. It could be square-bashing, cleaning the minibus, sweeping the paths. The kids might think it preferrableto lessons but providing it is done properly, they will be learning valuable life skills.

 

The ex-NCOs will probably be on a reasonable pension, so won't need a huge salary. In fact, I'm sure many of them would relish the opportunity to put something back into society.

[CHR1S]

Sounds like a great idea to me!

[beeswax]

heard this on the radio the other day.

[russdev]

Interesting their was debate about this on bbc breakfast other day.

 

Main thing was that nco were not used as replacement teachers.

 

But there few orgs that do work with ex-army people in schools.

 

Russ

[TechMonkey]

Seems a good idea. Used to be being under fire, used to management that isn't always clued up to the situation on the ground, used to relying on and respecting support sections (Ok with lots of deriding and jokes) and if all else fails know 101 ways to kill with bare hands and dispose of the evidence. Ideal

[laserblazer]

Seems a good idea. Used to be being under fire, used to management that isn't always clued up to the situation on the ground, used to relying on and respecting support sections (Ok with lots of deriding and jokes) and if all else fails know 101 ways to kill with bare hands and dispose of the evidence. Ideal

 

 

And probably a lot more willing than teaching staff to help move 30 new computers that have been dumped in the drive by the delivery man

[ICT_GUY]

We need sin bins.

 

In my experience the same minority of pupils, typically 5 - 10 hard core idiots per year group cause 99% of the problems. Remove them to a "training" school. Get rid of the trouble makers and the rest of the kids stand a much better chance of learning. This still happens in Germany, and it is quite effective.

 

The alternative is to have discipline in the schools, and to have discipline you must have sanctions that the kids do not like. Even stupid things like if a kid causes trouble whilst standing outside the heads office, I bring them in and get them to stare at a blank monitor.

 

If I had my way, detention would take place whilst listening to classical music. Double whammy of culture and the calming effects of the music.

 

Though in all honesty the best punishment is always the one that is feared above all others that is shown but only used occasionally. I was shown the cane a few times while at school, not hit with it but made aware that it was there and that it could still be used.

[beeswax]

If I had my way, detention would take place whilst listening to classical music. Double whammy of culture and the calming effects of the music.

 

It certainly worked for Alex in A Clockwork Orange. ;-)

[MK-2]

Though in all honesty the best punishment is always the one that is feared above all others that is shown but only used occasionally. I was shown the cane a few times while at school, not hit with it but made aware that it was there and that it could still be used.

 

That's the thing. Show them a cane nowadays and not only are you damaging these poor darlings fragile little minds with threats of physical violence, but if you were to use it they would probably have half the estate down at the end of school to lynch you.

[tech_guy]

Glass Houses. Floggings. Pillories. I'm all for it. Sod human rights - if they behave like scum they don't deserve any.

[Sirbendy]

At our "parent" academy, they have an ex-army (IIRC) chap who is the "enforcer"..and boy, does he scare the kids.

 

We have an ex-copper, who did time in the army and has a polished up mortar sat on his desk..not quite as effective.

 

But yes, we need to stuff the nicey-nicey approach, and flog the little barstewards..bring back the evil people.

 

When we sit and tell then about our schooldays (the flinging of the boardrubber - felt side for minor, wood for major..the running round the sportsfield, the dragging round by the ears) they think that we're either:

 

a) Making it up

 

or

 

b) From the dark ages.

 

and it really annoys me. Then they say "I'd sue if they did it to me...". Oh, would you? I used to take what I deserved, and I'd be scared to go home after..as for parents evenings...I dreaded them.

 

About the only teacher i've seen who the kids loathe due to his punishments here is the PE chap, who beasts them in the middle of the classroom..now THAT'S comedy. "YOU! Get down, 30 press ups, no lip"...then he tends to put books on them to add weight..

[russdev]

@sirbendy

 

I agree and disagree with that comment agree the I will sue you attitude is wrong but the problem that can have with the tough love approach is that very easy to slide and end up like in Jersey where you have some systematic abuse.

 

Russ

[farmerste]

i think the real problem is this weak pathetic government, all it has done is destroy manufacturing, turn everyone into a criminal, at the same time make someone else responsible for your actions, no matter how stupid you are, and increase red tape into everything, thus giving jobs to the 'BOYS' who would otherwise be unemployable 'do-gooders'

 

if it aint broke don't fix it, education was fine with the cane, and o-levels, and needed no reform.

 

with the money that is put into schools now, think what could be achieved if there was some discipline too !!

 

but i'd vote for you lot, anyone thinking of standing for parliament?

:-)

[Netman]

@sirbendy

 

I agree and disagree with that comment agree the I will sue you attitude is wrong but the problem that can have with the tough love approach is that very easy to slide and end up like in Jersey where you have some systematic abuse.

 

Russ

 

I think discipline and child abuse are completely different things Russ - one doesn't need to lead to the other at all....

 

I agree with most of the others here - the problem is not the kids IMO - it's the apathetic wishy washy 'give 'em whatever they want to shut 'em up' useless parents.

 

I think I'll stand for parliament - what about the 'Being a parent brings responsibilty' party..?

[jcollings]

i think the real problem is this weak pathetic government, all it has done is destroy manufacturing, turn everyone into a criminal, at the same time make someone else responsible for your actions, no matter how stupid you are, and increase red tape into everything, thus giving jobs to the 'BOYS' who would otherwise be unemployable 'do-gooders'

 

if it aint broke don't fix it, education was fine with the cane, and o-levels, and needed no reform.

 

with the money that is put into schools now, think what could be achieved if there was some discipline too !!

 

but i'd vote for you lot, anyone thinking of standing for parliament?

:-)

 

I think the Tories had done all of that long before this governement (who I admit haven't helped)

[BlogRat]

Ex forces NCOs may be on a pension but it’s not that much. Plus who would want to come out of the forces and work for peanuts dealing with the dross and helping deliver parcels around school, (although they would probably be willing to help) A Sergeants salary is between 27 & 32k, an RSM can earn up to 40k, that’s more than a lot of teachers. Just because they get a pension its no excuse to pay them less. People coming out of the forces are mostly highly motivated, in their early 40s and looking for a second career on the same sort of £££ as when they were serving.

[russdev]

Let my clarify I mean going back to 1960's way of discipline.

 

I do think we need discipline but cains and having board rubbers thrown at you is where line has to be drawn.

 

As I said currently doing audiocast on this subject.

 

Russ

[Alis_Klar]

I know the little $hits can really wind us up on occasion.....but

 

On the face of it sounds great but we already have ex army people here (Skillforce) and to be honest the lessons are just as noisy if not worse in many cases as normal teachers.

 

Any ex-Army people who come in would still have to abide by all the same rules teacher currently do.

 

The bbc news story make interesting reading esp. the comments.

[laserblazer]

Ex forces NCOs may be on a pension but it’s not that much. Plus who would want to come out of the forces and work for peanuts dealing with the dross and helping deliver parcels around school, (although they would probably be willing to help) A Sergeants salary is between 27 & 32k, an RSM can earn up to 40k, that’s more than a lot of teachers. Just because they get a pension its no excuse to pay them less. People coming out of the forces are mostly highly motivated, in their early 40s and looking for a second career on the same sort of £££ as when they were serving.

 

I think this may depend on what trade they were in. An engineer may find plenty of opportunity but a Discip. Sergeant may not have as many skills that are in demand. I'm not talking about paying them peanuts but possibly less than some of the so-called experts who spend ages evaluating these kids but never seem to have a solution that does any good.

[BlogRat]

That is the salary range for all Sgts, engineer/technical NCOs in many cases are promoted for what they know, others in the infantry etc are promoted fort he ability to lead and command. Who would you rather employ, some one who can repair a guided missile system or the guy who can lead 30 men in a bayonet charge?

[K.C.Leblanc]

I think if ex army types really wanted to work in schools they'd be doing teacher training.

 

I think we need tougher punishments and less PC rubbish. However I think a lot of the problems stem from an increasing number of students being brought up by parents who are completly incapable of bringing them up properly. Particularly those who can't say no to their children.

[e_g_r]

Beating kids as punishment may be a deterent to the nicer kids but those hard core trouble makers no. I went to a very hard school with a structure that included prefects and monitors who could dole out punishments.

 

Yes the nicer kids who stepped out of line only did it once but some kids just took the beatings and other punishments without changing their behaviour.

 

I think what Russ was getting at was that some people can get into the habit of doleing out physical punishment and might 'get off' on it. We certainly had teachers who would hit out at kids in a total random manor for no apparent reason. That was a form of 'abuse'.

 

Consistancy is the key. From the Head through the SMT and down to the teachers.

 

I've seen ex NCO's in skills force run ragged. Kids just don't react to square bashing. One of the reasons why there is a high fallout in basic training these days.

[witch]

You don't need to hit people to discipline them. That is the last resort of the weak and should not be necessary if there are proper procedures in place.

How on earth do you teach that violence is wrong if you use it yourself?

At our local school, when the pupils misbehave, they are instantly internally excluded which involves a very boring day spent in a room divided into cubicles with boring work set and no contact with others (staggered break and lunchtimes). They don't like it.

Whilst there are still some pupils with serious problems, what it is doing is controlling the day to day insolence and disobedience and making the whole school a better place.

We do have a problem with the really hard cases as the place they are put in when excluded for more than a week is completely ineffectual and the head is not happy about condemning them to the dustbin which is pretty much what exclusion does.

[davyboi]

should clone that bloke from bad lads army and give one to every school

[e_g_r]

visited a school in Hastings last year where they give pupil community service and for H&S reasons make them wear a vivid yellow jacket. The kids hate it.

 

We have an isolation unit with cubicles but the kids will still play up no matter what.