RMT ASLEF and Southern - Time to go!

[LeMarchand]

Apparently an ASLEF bod was booked for the Breakfast News today, but couldn't get in... because there were no trains running!

[AMLinington]

It's not just Sussex and Surrey that are affected. I've started driving to work again because the Southern situation is so bad that I'm hanging around work for 2 hours longer per day just to wait for a train. It's a joke!

[elsiegee40]

SouthEastern trains are bursting at the seams with extra passengers from Southern on them. Those closer to London are struggling to get on the trains

[nikaso]

The problem with the strike action is it's predicated on safety concerns, i.e. the removal of the guard duties regarding door control will result in reduced passenger safety. As others have correctly stated there is DOO (Driver Only Operation) already in use in other parts of the network with no issue. We all know that the real reason is the unions want to protect the long term jobs of their guards (Southern have said staffing will actually increase but the unions fear in time the on-board staff will be removed).

 

This is the march of technology, automatic trains are a lot easier to design and operate than automated cars for example due in no small part to the set nature of the rail network they traverse. The unions protesting against this is analogous to the Luddite rebellion, it will only delay the inevitable and along the way causes absolute chaos not only for the passengers on Southern services but all the downstream people this affects (road networks, schools, employers etc.).

[zag]

The average train driver earns £49,000 acording to Aslef too, I still can't believe people have sympathy for these unionized fatcats.

[LeMarchand]

The average train driver earns £49,000 acording to Aslef too, I still can't believe people have sympathy for these unionized fatcats.

 

Conductors are on £12k to £28k, though.

[bigjb]

The average train driver earns £49,000 acording to Aslef too, I still can't believe people have sympathy for these unionized fatcats.

 

And would you want the level of responsibility a train driver has on your shoulders?

[zag]

And would you want the level of responsibility a train driver has on your shoulders?

 

Yes, you can say the same thing about bus drivers. Or nursery school teachers. All jobs carry some form of responsibility.

 

I remember a news article recently about some new line opening up in London and they advertised for drivers. It was something like 500 to 1 oversubscribed due to the huge wage and holiday entitlements on offer.

 

Getting a job like that after years of unions holding commuters ransom would be like the golden ticket.

 

Did anyone see Bob Crows cousin on the news in there with the picketers? That tells you a lot about the politics of it all!

Edited December 14, 2016 by zag

[CAM]

Train drivers aren't an entry level job though. You have to undergo hundreds of hours of training to learn the route and how to operate the train, you need to work with maintenance to understand how it works as you need to undertake trackside diagnostics/repairs during breakdowns and you have to keep a maintenance log which if you don't keep it up-to-date every day gets you kicked off the training course as you pose a hazard.

 

Tube drivers can't even be advertised on the open market due to union rules and it's treated as a promotion from station staff.

 

Even the heritage line I worked on required ten years of unpaid training in the Cleaner -> Fireman -> Driver promotion structure before you became the driver in charge of the train.

Edited December 14, 2016 by CAM

[LeMarchand]

Yes, you can say the same thing about bus drivers. Or nursery school teachers. All jobs carry some form of responsibility.

 

I remember a news article recently about some new line opening up in London and they advertised for drivers. It was something like 500 to 1 oversubscribed due to the huge wage and holiday entitlements on offer.

 

Getting a job like that after years of unions holding commuters ransom would be like the golden ticket.

 

Did anyone see Bob Crows cousin on the news in there with the picketers? That tells you a lot about the politics of it all!

I'm not surprised that such jobs are oversubscribed - there's not many "working class" chances for that sort of money. Why wouldn't people want a crack at the whip?

 

Bob Crow's cousin? Is he (or she - I'm not as well acquainted with the family as you) not allowed to side with the union?

[bigjb]

Yes, you can say the same thing about bus drivers. Or nursery school teachers. All jobs carry some form of responsibility.

 

I remember a news article recently about some new line opening up in London and they advertised for drivers. It was something like 500 to 1 oversubscribed due to the huge wage and holiday entitlements on offer.

 

Getting a job like that after years of unions holding commuters ransom would be like the golden ticket.

 

Did anyone see Bob Crows cousin on the news in there with the picketers? That tells you a lot about the politics of it all!

 

Do they really have the same level of responsibility as a nursery school teacher? I doubt it. I personally want the train driver to concentrate on doing his job i.e. driving the train safely with the hundreds of people that could be on the train they are responsible for.

[zag]

The tweet from the department for transport yesterday was pretty funny:

 

"Unions strike action unnecessary. No jobs being lost and no pay being cut - unions disputing who presses button to close train doors."

 

[zag]

Conductors are on £12k to £28k, though.

 

The Telegraph seems to infer that Conductors are on £35,000 average which is astonishing!!

 

The militant union behind the strikes that have crippled Southern Rail is using its £46 million war-chest to pay conductors £300 a week to stay off work, it has emerged.

 

As 300,000 commuters in the south of England prepare for another day of transport misery, RMT officials confirmed that the union is handing its 400 conductors a tax-free allowance of £60 a day to strike, equivalent to a gross annual salary of more than £18,000.

 

The figure equates to around half of the standard £35,000 wage earned by conductors, and helps shed light on how the union has managed to persuade staff to keep the industrial action going for nearly nine months.

 

Union paying Southern Rail conductors £300 a week to strike

[mjk]

The conductors should be opening the doors. It's safer.

The drivers should be sacked and replaced with computers. It's safer.

[LeMarchand]

The Telegraph seems to infer that Conductors are on £35,000 average which is astonishing!!

 

Even the government disagree: https://nationalcareersservice.direct.gov.uk/job-profiles/train-conductor

[john]

SouthEastern trains are bursting at the seams with extra passengers from Southern on them. Those closer to London are struggling to get on the trains

 

Your telling me loads are getting off the SE train to the DLR and thus the DLR is overcrowding badly on Bank routes

[bigjb]

The Telegraph seems to infer that Conductors are on £35,000 average which is astonishing!!

 

 

 

Union paying Southern Rail conductors £300 a week to strike

 

 

Does the Torygraph not have connections to a certain political party? I would suggest you take what you read with a pinch of salt. Maybe a revolutionary idea but perhaps these private rail companies should put customers before profit? Maybe the rail network should be run for the public rather than shareholders?

[CAM]

Does the Torygraph not have connections to a certain political party? I would suggest you take what you read with a pinch of salt. Maybe a revolutionary idea but perhaps these private rail companies should put customers before profit? Maybe the rail network should be run for the public rather than shareholders?

 

Southern is paid a flat fee and the government picks up the fare money. There was no other way of attracting companies to run the franchise due to engineering work at London Bridge causing disruption.

[TechMonkey]

Southern is paid a flat fee and the government picks up the fare money. There was no other way of attracting companies to run the franchise due to engineering work at London Bridge causing disruption.

 

So the government is pulling the strings and Southern is doing what it is told?.....

[bigjb]

And the flat fee is still to a private company whose priority is to make profit first and foremost. Just saying

[Ketlane]

And the flat fee is still to a private company whose priority is to make profit first and foremost. Just saying

 

I'm not at all sure the public vs private issue is the main one. The key point in all this is that all commuter lines run at a loss and have to be government subsidised in one way or another. The track and rolling stock are not efficiently used as they have to cope with huge peaks and troughs in demand. This isn't a Southern problem, this is universal. Now a consequent question is why someone here in Cumbria with no public transport should pay tax to subsidise a Southern commuter.

Other points include the historical fact that our railways were all built long, long ago - which limits the height and length of trains and therefore track capacity: double deckers may work elsewhere but they won't work here. Engineering to fix some pinch points causes massive disruption and therefore suffers from political pressure both ways: "London Bridge is a shambles and the engineering makes it worse" vs "Why don't you sort London Bridge out?" And then there's signalling - with some improvements trains can operate with shorter headways, but installing the signalling is disruptive and expensive.

I think that there is another factor as well - and that is ASLEF, RMT, TSSA are in a very powerful position and can take industrial action at will. This gives them vast political power which is not under the democratic control of the country as a whole, although of course they vote for their actions, and their leaders, democratically within the unions. There are I think two underlying forces here - a wish to assert and maintain their power, and a strong strand of Luddism and job protection which is clothed in righteous indignation over safety.

[bigjb]

An interesting take on the dispute I think

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/14/southern-rail-strikes-franchise-unions

[CAM]

I'm surprised at how quiet the roads are today. I think people have just taken the day off and started their Christmas break early to avoid the strike.

[Davit2005]

I'm surprised at how quiet the roads are today. I think people have just taken the day off and started their Christmas break early to avoid the strike.

 

+1 . Even the M25 West side wasn't the car park it normally is, only had one short stop even though left few mins later than normal.

 

As far as Southern rail is concerned, I used their services for over 3 years. Endured chronic over crowding in the evenings even on normal journeys (only quite in the mornings as I took the 6am train).

 

I reckon I'd see 1 guard a week on a 35min journey from Watford to Clapham, a few times trains were cancelled due to lack of staff.

 

Enough is enough the gov have got to step in for the commuters, I'm not saying just throw money at it either.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Davit2005

[CAM]

+1 . Even the M25 West side wasn't the car park it normally is, only had one short stop even though left few mins later than normal.

 

As far as Southern rail is concerned, I used their services for over 3 years. Endured chronic over crowding in the evenings even on normal journeys (only quite in the mornings as I took the 6am train).

 

I reckon I'd see 1 guard a week on a 35min journey from Watford to Clapham, a few times trains were cancelled due to lack of staff.

 

Enough is enough the gov have got to step in for the commuters, I'm not saying just throw money at it either.

 

I don't even see one guard a month. I used their trains almost weekly at the weekends and it was only if I caught a train to Brighton that I might see a guard. Now I live by a station with no guards, no station staff, one set of platforms and trains dashing through at 70MPH. It's still DOO as it is Thameslink and even on the Southern trains I never see a guard!