Teacher stabbed to death at school in Leeds

[Garacesh]

An obviously severely troubled/damaged child kills somebody and people start crying out that society is going down the plughole, that children have no respect, or even fear?!

 

Who wants children to fear the staff? That's ridiculous. I sit here as a teacher shouts loudly enough to be heard by me in the next room. I know that when I was at school that turned me off to showing them the automatic 'respect' that was expected.

 

This is a very sad, very isolated, case and shouldn't be used to draw any conclusions from. Stop trying to solve problems that you're convinced exist because you've only used a case study of one student, one teacher. The world isn't black and white.

 

I don't really think anything has been said to warrant such an indignant tone. Nobody has said students should fear the staff. Whilst I did use the word "afraid", I didn't mean it to mean the child should actively fear their teachers. Think more 'worried', or even simply 'care about'.

 

Don't kid yourself, @gwendes, teachers don't just shout for no reason. When you hear a teacher shouting, it's because the children aren't listening to his/her normal 'speaking voice' and are likely causing enough noise that they have to raise their voice above it. It's not like they walk into the room, the class are sitting nicely at their desks, pen, pencil, ruler and workbook ready and the teacher just decides "RIGHT! CLASS! TODAY WE'RE GOING TO DISCUSS CONVECTION CURRENTS!"

Edited April 29, 2014 by Garacesh

[abillybob]

My apologies. Perhaps "implies" might have been a better choice of words than "assumes". My point stands though, as horrendous as the idea might be, the pupil could just as easily be a victim a wider tragic story. We don't know all the facts. Maybe with rehabilitation the individual does deserve the chance at a "normal life"?

 

I know this may get a lot of hate thrown my way and please understand these are my personal opinions. Though I get sick and tired of everyone feeling pity on people who go around killing others. "But I'm from a broken home" or "I'm from a low income family who never cared" "I didn't have a farther figure" ugh! it gets boring. Just because you've had a hard childhood and your father didn't show you attention doesn't mean it's ok to kill people. This is what annoys me, my mum had a really hard up bringing her mum (my nan) wouldn't come home for days and left my 8 year old mum looking after her two younger sisters, my mothers dad (my grandad) would come home and throw bottle, punch doors in when his horse didn't win a race etc.... sob sob I could go on. But my mum didn't care she rebelled and didn't want to be like my nan and now she's the Business Manager in a secondary school and is doing really well for herself. From the age of 13 she's always worked and she's the kindest person you'd ever come to meet.

 

Just because you haven't been given love and affection or that your family has little to no money doesn't mean you need to be naughty and disrespectful to people, everyone in this country gets free education and if you work hard and set yourself a goal you can do anything you want and get as far as the next person. You have the same opportunities.

 

I'm sorry if I have offended some people but it does anger me, I watched that program "Teen Killer" on iPlayer and all you heard was sob story this or sob story that "My farther wasn't around so I killed him", as if they where trying to make the person watching feel sorry for the kid that murdered his own family it makes me sick and the media doesn't help with cases like these!

 

Now this is assuming the child acted up because of these types of reasons although it could have been a lot more serious and different such as child abuse on the teachers end etc etc.... which is a whole new kettle of fish.

[gwendes]

Here's a bit of a rant for you guys if you can call it that. I find kids nowadays just aren't scared of staff anymore, I remember as a child in both Primary & Secondary school I was scared of doing something wrong as their would be bad consequences, heck we even got weeks detention if my top button wasn't done up, yet we have students here in year 6 wearing bright white Nike trainers! I think respect for teaching staff has deteriorated over the years, I had a year 6 child tell me to F off yesterday and all he's getting is a slap on the wrist (not literally, just a small telling off) if I'd of done that back in school I'd of got Suspended or chucked out no questions asked.

 

Some do shout for no reason. Just like some tear up kids work for no reason and lose their temper with other staff for 'no reason'. Some people, adults and children, cannot control themselves.

 

If you've not worked with them yet, you're very lucky. I just don't believe any relationship based on being scared is worth it.

 

Violent crime is down year-on-year - this is a very sad and very isolated case.

[tmcd35]

"But I'm from a broken home" or "I'm from a low income family who never cared" "I didn't have a farther figure" ugh! it gets boring. Just because you've had a hard childhood and your father didn't show you attention doesn't mean it's ok to kill people.

 

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not excusing the boys actions. He certainly should be punished as the law and society deem proportional to his crime, and if possible rehabilitated back into society.

 

We don't have the full facts. We don't know why he did what he did. We only have speculation.

@Earthling asked why he should be allowed to lead a normal life? I ask - is there some extenuating circumstances we don't know about and can he be rehabilitated? If so, then why shouldn't he be allowed a normal life?

[gwendes]

I know this may get a lot of hate thrown my way and please understand these are my personal opinions. Though I get sick and tired of everyone feeling pity on people who go around killing others. "But I'm from a broken home" or "I'm from a low income family who never cared" "I didn't have a farther figure" ugh! it gets boring. Just because you've had a hard childhood and your father didn't show you attention doesn't mean it's ok to kill people. This is what annoys me, my mum had a really hard up bringing her mum (my nan) wouldn't come home for days and left my 8 year old mum looking after her two younger sisters, my mothers dad (my grandad) would come home and throw bottle, punch doors in when his horse didn't win a race etc.... sob sob I could go on. But my mum didn't care she rebelled and didn't want to be like my nan and now she's the Business Manager in a secondary school and is doing really well for herself. From the age of 13 she's always worked and she's the kindest person you'd ever come to meet.

 

Lucky you. Perhaps you don't have a history of mental health problems in your family. Perhaps you haven't experienced empathy loss due to brain damage or been poisoned by abusive parents. I find your belief that very damaged people should 'pull their socks up' and stop making excuses (or stop having others make excuses for them) quite appalling. Both my parents and I have worked in Secure Pupil Referral units and EBD schools. You should maybe visit one.

Edited April 29, 2014 by gwendes
spelling error

[Garacesh]

I don't believe @abillybob meant it in the 'child actively fears the member of staff' way, either. I think you're misconstruing things.

 

Some adults, like children, cannot control themselves, yes. And they ought to be ejected from their employment if it causes reasonable concern (tearing up a child's work for no reason constitutes bullying in my book). People should required to pay for their consequences. Such as this kid serving time for murder.

 

Violent crime is always down year-on-year. Either we arrest more people (less criminals out there on the streets, crime falls) or we arrest less people (people aren't being as violent this year, crime falls)

 

Edit: That being said, I think you're also being a little too harsh @abillybob. Childhood trauma can scar a child beyond repair, often blurring the lines between right and wrong. Your mother managed to pull through her difficult childhood, and kudos to her, it sounds like it took significant effort and that achievement shouldn't be overlooked. That being said, some people don't have the capability to do that.

 

It's just as possible that the teacher was molesting this child and they'd simply had enough as it is the child was undiagnosed with schizophrenia and a violent personality disorder, or anything else inbetween. Without the facts, we can't really know for sure.

Edited April 29, 2014 by Garacesh

[gwendes]

If this was due to a 'broken home' we'd see more than one case a day. Fact.

[gwendes]

Your mother managed to pull through her difficult childhood, and kudos to her, it sounds like it took significant effort and that achievement shouldn't be overlooked. That being said, some people don't have the capability to do that.

 

It's just as possible that the teacher was molesting this child and they'd simply had enough as it is the child was undiagnosed with schizophrenia and a violent personality disorder, or anything else inbetween. Without the facts, we can't really know for sure.

 

Exactly this. Normal people, who happen to have a very difficult childhood, tend not to kill people in the vast majority of cases. Beleive it or not, killing other people is not the norm, even for the children who face horrible suffering every day at the hands of adults who are supposed to care for them. Don't blame excuses where they haven't been made.

[abillybob]

Lucky you. Perhaps you don't have a history of mental health problems in your family. Perhaps you haven't experienced empathy loss due to brain damage or been poisoned by abusive parents. I find your belief that very damaged people should 'pull their socks up' and stop making excuses (or stop having others make excuses for them) quite appalling. Both my parents and I have worked in Secure Pupil Referral units and EBD schools. You should maybe visit one.

 

And this makes it ok for that child to kill somebody does it! So the childs mum has brain damage that gives him a right to murder someone does it? Sorry I must have missed that in the teaching of life.

 

Also why are you attacking me because I stated theirs no fear in children nowadays. You'd be mistaken if you think I think the perfect world is all children shaking in their boots when a member of staff walks up to them! I am not saying this I'm merely stating the fact that children now know you can touch them, know you can't inflict a simple punishment like a detention as their parents will stick up for them so they can do what they like. As a result they are not scared of getting into trouble as there is no longer a way to discipline the children. This also makes the case that staff are more worried to confront children anymore as they think it will lead to them loosing their job or getting themselves into trouble so staff ignore the issues!

[Garacesh]

Exactly this. Normal people, who happen to have a very difficult childhood, tend not to kill people in the vast majority of cases. Beleive it or not, killing other people is not the norm, even for the children who face horrible suffering every day at the hands of adults who are supposed to care for them. Don't blame excuses where they haven't been made.

 

That excuse has been made, though not in this particular circumstance. I believe abillybob even cited a reference ("Teen Killer" documentary on iPlayer)

@abillybob, no, this doesn't give them the right to kill someone. Now it's your turn to be going too far with things. Nowhere did @gwendes say it grants them the right - s/he didn't even say it was a mitigating factor. gwendes was discussing contributions towards the mental state that could potentially drive someone to/closer to committing murder. Please, both of you, take a minute before responding to ensure you're not exaggerating things or misinterpreting them.

[abillybob]

Edit: That being said, I think you're also being a little too harsh @abillybob. Childhood trauma can scar a child beyond repair, often blurring the lines between right and wrong. Your mother managed to pull through her difficult childhood, and kudos to her, it sounds like it took significant effort and that achievement shouldn't be overlooked. That being said, some people don't have the capability to do that.

 

It's just as possible that the teacher was molesting this child and they'd simply had enough as it is the child was undiagnosed with schizophrenia and a violent personality disorder, or anything else inbetween. Without the facts, we can't really know for sure.

@Garacesh I completely agree and much better worded and more professional than gwendes's comment. Though I should also back myself up by saying this isn't about getting a job or getting back on your feet. It's about knowing the difference between right and wrong and due to the fact children don't have enough disciplinary boundaries when something does go wrong in their lives they are more likely to go off the rails and do something like killing someone else due to their confusion on what's right or wrong. My point being the disciplinary system doesn't work at the moment and something needs to be done to prevent things like this happening, maybe if that child knew the consequences of his actions this wouldn't of happened, I find a lot of children think when they are in a school they are protected in a little bubble and don't think people like the police can get involved. My comment was just worded wrongly as I'm also enjoying a ham sandwich while typing this!

 

I also did state that if it's molestation or child abuse from the teachers side this brings out a whole new kettle of fish!

[gwendes]

And this makes it ok for that child to kill somebody does it! So the childs mum has brain damage that gives him a right to murder someone does it? Sorry I must have missed that in the teaching of life.

 

Yes. That makes perfect sense. Glad you understood my post.

 

Also why are you attacking me because I stated theirs no fear in children nowadays.

 

When did I attack you?

 

You'd be mistaken if you think I think the perfect world is all children shaking in their boots when a member of staff walks up to them! I am not saying this I'm merely stating the fact that children now know you can touch them, know you can't inflict a simple punishment like a detention as their parents will stick up for them so they can do what they like.

 

Not the case in some VERY challenging schools I've been to. Kids with real issues that have been dealt with without resorting to physically assaulting the children, like the good ol' days.

 

Sorry, what is your point here? We need more teachers to shout at/'touch' the kids?

 

As a result they are not scared of getting into trouble as there is no longer a way to discipline the children. This also makes the case that staff are more worried to confront children anymore as they think it will lead to them loosing their job or getting themselves into trouble so staff ignore the issues!

 

Rubbish.

 

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers." - Socrates 469-399BC

 

Unprofessional? Cheers!

[tommej]

So what's your solution?

 

Also to compare specialist detention units to every day schools is a bit of a stretch isn't it?

Edited April 29, 2014 by tommej

[superatticman]

Yes of course we all know that society, and that includes parents and schools have cultivated an entire generation that are not prepared for the real World that lays ahead of them. Especially now that its a global economy and they are up against competitors that have been brought up with a lot more discipline, work ethic and a more realistic sense of expectation.

 

However, no amount of education, compassion or discipline can prevent random acts of violence from a human being. Don't want to see stupid kneejerk reactions like 'metal detectors in every school' as some of the press are suggesting. Was what happened here realistically preventable? Maybe. But the problem is do we start locking people away from having 'disturbing pictures' or listening to violent music? I'd have been sectioned years ago for daring to like heavy metal and liking a punch up at football in my youth.

 

Either way, kneejerk is not the way here.

 

And by the way, you can be mentally stable, stab a headmaster to death in broad daylight and be out to re offend in considerably less than a 'life' sentence. Maybe thats the first thing that we have to look at.

[pcstru]

Without the facts, we can't really know for sure.

Right. Anything could have happened. Most people could agree that the events are tragic. Most people will rightly immediately think of the teacher and her family. Without wishing to make any judgement I also think of the student. It's not that there are any excuses for the behaviour, just that it is unlikely to have been a cold calculated act, but rather a heat of the moment loss of control that will be utterly, irrevocably and destructively life changing.

[gwendes]

So what's your solution?

 

Also to compare specialist detention units to every day schools is a bit of a stretch isn't it?

 

There isn't a single solution.

 

That's like saying, "How do we solve Crime?" (capital 'c' intentional)

 

I've worked across all types of school (including EBD and PRUs)

Edited April 29, 2014 by gwendes

[localzuk]

And this makes it ok for that child to kill somebody does it! So the childs mum has brain damage that gives him a right to murder someone does it? Sorry I must have missed that in the teaching of life.

 

That's a poor argument to say the least. It is not an excuse more of an explanation. Mental illness causes behaviour that isn't "normal". Saying mental illness exists and childhood neglect leading to major behavioural issues exist does not mean that the abhorrent behaviour is suddenly acceptable. It means we have a cause and potential effects. So, we can now work on the cause - helping those with mental illness, helping those with poor home lives - with the goal of preventing the abhorrent behaviour.

 

You seem to be saying that the outcome of things like people being killed by those with mental illness is that they should be punished, locked away and forgotten. Whereas a more moderate view is that those people should be removed from society, rehabilitated and returned to society.

[LeMarchand]

Violent crime is down year-on-year - this is a very sad and very isolated case.

 

Well, that's what the figures say. Maybe it is, but maybe the reporting goals have been moved. My weekly shop certainly doesn't seem to increase in line with the official inflation figures...

 

I'm merely stating the fact that children now know you can touch them, know you can't inflict a simple punishment like a detention as their parents will stick up for them so they can do what they like. As a result they are not scared of getting into trouble as there is no longer a way to discipline the children. This also makes the case that staff are more worried to confront children anymore as they think it will lead to them loosing their job or getting themselves into trouble so staff ignore the issues!

 

I do worry about this attitude that so many children - hell, people - have, and wonder if we spend too much time telling them all what special little flowers they are. I work in a few primaries, and it's a minor miracle if a child steps aside to let you past - even if you're obviously carrying a heavy load. Too many people work on the principle that "I'll do what I want because in the likely event that I'm caught, chances are I'll not face any serious consequences". The other day, I came out of the local Tesco into a cloud of very "fragrant" smoke. The police station is literally across the (not very wide) road!

[abillybob]

That's a poor argument to say the least. It is not an excuse more of an explanation. Mental illness causes behaviour that isn't "normal". Saying mental illness exists and childhood neglect leading to major behavioural issues exist does not mean that the abhorrent behaviour is suddenly acceptable. It means we have a cause and potential effects. So, we can now work on the cause - helping those with mental illness, helping those with poor home lives - with the goal of preventing the abhorrent behaviour.

 

You seem to be saying that the outcome of things like people being killed by those with mental illness is that they should be punished, locked away and forgotten. Whereas a more moderate view is that those people should be removed from society, rehabilitated and returned to society.

 

No, no, don't misunderstand this is not what I'm trying to say at all, mental illness is a different matter altogether. What I'm saying is that when people say the person involved has been mentally scared by his/her mother or close relative becoming brain damaged this does not excuse the perpetrator then going around and killing people as they have had a hard childhood in result to their close relative being brain damaged. I am NOT saying in anyway that a person WITH a mental illness is at fault I understand that they don't think like us and they can be dangerous as they can't sometimes determine right from wrong because they are ill!

 

If this is how my comment has come across then I apologies.

 

And by the way, you can be mentally stable, stab a headmaster to death in broad daylight and be out to re offend in considerably less than a 'life' sentence. Maybe thats the first thing that we have to look at.

 

Yep if you decide to kill someone you should be executed yourself! Then we'd see the murders drop in the UK!

[penfold]

Not the case in some VERY challenging schools I've been to. Kids with real issues that have been dealt with without resorting to physically assaulting the children, like the good ol' days.

 

Sorry, what is your point here? We need more teachers to shout at/'touch' the kids?

 

Can I just ask why this thread seems to have turned into an argument here? I've only skim read it so I may have missed something but from what I read @abillybob seems to be highlighting the fact that lots of children either do not know right from wrong or don't care that they are doing wrong because they will never be held accountable for their actions. I didn't read that they need to be shouted at or hit for this to happen, I read it as teachers losing the power to dish out a punishment that is suitable to the child's actions.

 

And however you try and put it, my wife was extremely worried because some child had informed the school that she had hit them during the lunch play time. She was worried that she would lose her job and therefore her career because she had no way of proving it was false. The fact is other children confirmed something happened but couldn't say exactly. It took 3 days before they found out that the day that said it happened thankfully was the day she was not in school and they admitted to making it up. Nothing happened to those children but my wife barely slept for 3 days due to stress. So yes, I agree that children know they can get away with an awful lot without the fear of any consequences.

 

I don't think this was the case we are talking about here though. It is a very tragic thing that has happened and as has been said before, you should be able to go into school feeling safe and being able to come home to your loved ones, that is both children and staff many of which have had their lives altered forever after this attack.

[CAM]

Oh no, not this road. Capital punishment argument incoming!

[tommej]

There isn't a single solution.

 

That's like saying, "How do we solve Crime?" (capital 'c' intentional)

 

I've worked across all types of school (including EBD and PRUs)

 

You have more experience than me of these places but you must know they're treated to a VERY different rule book than students in a regular school/timetable, with specially trained staff to deal with them.

[Theblacksheep]

Here's a bit of a rant for you guys if you can call it that.

 

Couldn't things like this be left in another thread, rather than drag down a school murder thread into heated (and often ill thought out) personal opinions about metal health, society and "kids today".

 

RIP

[AMLinington]

This thread is denigrating into a flame war. I think most of the points that have been seized upon and griefed are down to semantics. 'Kids aren't afraid of teachers anymore'. Being 'afraid' in an educational context can mean lots of different things. You're making an argument out of semantics. Being afraid of a teacher could simply be that you as a pupil had a sufficient 'fear' of the consequences of bad behaviour that you didn't misbehave. Different teachers do this in different ways. Some by shouting and being 'verbally abusive' (if you want to call it that). I had a primary school teacher who was an absolutely horrible woman who would shout and embarrass me when I did something wrong. Other teachers don't NEED to shout. They've demonstrated their commitment to a punishment by following through on it - example. Mrs E was my year 3 teacher. I LOVED her. She was a BRILLIANT teacher who really engaged me and I did really well in her class. She never had to shout at me to get me to be afraid to misbehave though. I was afraid of letting her down and disappointing her because I LIKED her and wanted her approval. So if I did something 'naughty' she'd make it clear how disappointed she was. So yes I was 'afraid' but not because she actually frightened me. She would also have regular meetings with my mother and I really was 'afraid' of my mothers disapproval because 'back in the day' my mum was quite scary and my sister and I were always 'well disciplined' without needing to be spanked. So if I 'stepped out of line' I knew it would get back to my mum and I'd suffer the consequences (again, semantics, 'suffering the consequences' at the age of 7 was being banned from the TV or excluded from a fun activity or similar).

 

The point @abillybob makes about a child learning the difference between right and wrong is a good one - the lines are so blurred and I'm sorry to say that with each passing generation, there are less parents that 'care' about what their children are up to so these children grow up with poorly defined boundaries and so in turn poorly define the boundaries for their own children. So if a child gets away with violent and threatening behaviour at home what self-check do they have to keep this behaviour under control at school? They don't. The parent doesn't care so the child gets away with it at home and at school because the parent doesn't support the school in setting appropriate boundaries.

 

Perhaps the answer is to take all children away from their parents before they can be 'damaged' or influenced by the parent and put them all into a state run facility to be taught right and wrong according to nationally defined standards to 'reset' the deterioration of moral values in society? Blah blah disclaimer, this is an extreme (and slightly sarcastic) example don't flame me.

 

I agree something has to be done to reverse the declining trend but it's not an easy problem to fix. Perhaps a stint in the armed forces at 16 might give kids a bit of perspective? Re-instigate national service?

 

I don't know. I'm just putting ideas out there. As are others in the thread. Don't attack them for it.

 

I once knew a boy who was brought up in a strong, affluent family unit. They had a lovely house, nice holidays. The younger brother and sister were lovely but the eldest boy (who always appeared polite and quiet) was troubled by bullying at school. He dropped out of school and began working at a supermarket where somehow he ended up getting caught stealing from the tills. He only stole because he didn't want to ask his parents for money as they'd have questioned him on what he was using it for. Either way he got done for it and fired. Something snapped in his head and he murdered his Dad and tried to kill his Mum. When they asked him why he said he did it to spare them the shame. When pressed further it transpired that he had a 'revenge list' and planned to kill the bullies that 'ruined his life' then kill whoever it was at the supermarket that got him into trouble. He knew it would shame his family so he decided it would be best to spare them that and kill them first.

 

So not all murders are because the victim is hated. I think it's wrong to even speculate on abuse. Until the facts of the matter are released it would be respectful to the family and the victim to keep such speculation in check.

 

As a victim of bullying myself I once lost control of my hurt and rage and threw a chair at a girl in maths class then had a breakdown in the stationary cupboard. Sometimes these things happen because someone is desperate and cornered and in a horrible, deep dark place and puberty is a cauldron of lava as it is. Perhaps what we are seeing here is simply a case of a pupil pushed to breaking point by factor or factors unknown, who snapped and made a horrible, tragic mistake that even now he may be sitting in his cell sobbing over. A lot of things happen in the 'heat of the moment' that you wish you could undo when you've had time to calm down.

 

This is a tragic case and when more details of the circumstances have been released then we are in a better position to posit our thoughts on them but until then everything is speculative. Everyone has a right to be safe in their working environment and it is doubly tragic that in the pursuit of her teaching vocation (and believe me, you have to be committed to teach) this teacher lost her life to an injury inflicted by a pupil (I'll refrain from speculating on the hows and whys), and that the pupil was in such a condition as to be able to inflict such an injury in the first place at the tender age of 15.

Edited April 29, 2014 by AMLinington

[Garacesh]

As a result they are not scared of getting into trouble as there is no longer a way to discipline the children. This also makes the case that staff are more worried to confront children anymore as they think it will lead to them loosing their job or getting themselves into trouble so staff ignore the issues!

Rubbish.

Going to have to say that's certainly not rubbish as I've had more than a handful of the staff divulge this exact fear to me in private conversation in the two-and-a-half years I've worked here. It's 'safer' to placate (or, in effect, bribe) an unruly child into a compromise than it is to directly challenge them and try and push them back into obeying the rules fully. This is because the child still feels that they 'got their own way', whilst the situation has at least been mitigated, though not resolved.