The Michael Gove BETT Speech

[Ephelyon]

Right, except I apply the same logical thinking about problem-solving skills in both Systems Administration and End-User Support (as professional disciplines... hehehe!) without having ever studied "coding". I also know plenty of programmers who still require support with e.g. Registry editing and etc because it's outside their skillset. Applying such a broad definition to the term "coding", especially in the context of the new curriculum, will inevitably lead to either confusion about what's required, or everything doing a different thing, or both.

[LosOjos]

Right, except I apply the same logical thinking about problem-solving skills in both Systems Administration and End-User Support (as professional disciplines... hehehe!) without having ever studied "coding". I also know plenty of programmers who still require support with e.g. Registry editing and etc because it's outside their skillset. Applying such a broad definition to the term "coding", especially in the context of the new curriculum, will inevitably lead to either confusion about what's required, or everything doing a different thing, or both.

 

Yes, but not everyone instinctively has those problem solving skills. Techies, by our very nature, do tend to have these skills. I know coding isn't the be all and end all, but you have to pick something, you can't teach everything, and coding is broad enough to be used in many different areas of IT, not just network management, plus it's the simplest way (IMO) to teach said problem solving and logic.

 

Look at Scratch - not what many would call "coding" per se but it allows you to quickly demonstrate how logic can control the flow of a program.

[Ephelyon]

I agree with everything you say there, except for the fact that some will have a natural inclination towards those problem-solving skills whereas others can (and will) learn it.

 

But the point that I think @tmcd35 and I are making is that we're very much in danger of it becoming the be all and end all because it's not being taught in context, instead being very much presented as the totality of it. We here may all know that's not the case, but the people it's being presented to don't and that's the point.

[localzuk]

That's the thing though, the curriculum doesn't make coding the be-all and end all of it. Just the headlines do.

[Garacesh]

Yes, but not everyone instinctively has those problem solving skills. Techies, by our very nature, do tend to have these skills. I know coding isn't the be all and end all, but you have to pick something, you can't teach everything, and coding is broad enough to be used in many different areas of IT, not just network management, plus it's the simplest way (IMO) to teach said problem solving and logic.

 

Look at Scratch - not what many would call "coding" per se but it allows you to quickly demonstrate how logic can control the flow of a program.

I've not looked at Scratch, but realistically unless it employs IF/ELSEIF/ELSE and some form of conditional WHILE/LOOP then I can't see it being more than a glorified powerpoint. But like I say, I've not played with it. I know our IT suits have it, though.

[tmcd35]

^This (EDIT: too meny quick posts, responding to @Ephelyon)

 

During the previous thread on the subject I went off and actually read the propossed new curriculum details. While other areas of IT are mentioned, it seems very skewed towards coding almost to the exclusion of all else. This to my mind is almost as bad as just teaching Word/Excel/Powerpoint. It's also in danger of trying to fixed one perserved industry problem - not enough programming graduates - and not fullfilling it's educational function, teaching kids how computers actually work.

[Ephelyon]

Just the headlines do.

 

... which is:

 

(a) what will be remembered;

(b) what media coverage will focus on;

© what people who actually do know the distinction will hear, but without any context.

 

What's in the headlines is extremely important as that's the "image" of what's going on. It's also what people who don't know the context of it will pick up on. So there will be a disparity between what policy-makers believe is going on and what is actually going on, with the added problem that what is actually going on could be anybody's guess between different places.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Ephelyon

[TomCollins]

I remember in Year 7, we started using Flowol, which I found most people actually enjoyed (OK, it's not exactly 'coding' however it is working out problems logically with flowcharts etc) and also coding websites using basic HTML Notepad, and at GCSE in Electronics having to use Yenka to program PIC Chips.

 

However, this was then replaced (when I was in Year 8) by ICT 4 Life, which I believe is just office training, and only teaches how to make pretty things in Office and cool animations/videos. With that and OCR/Cambridge Nationals, things have definitely changed more to the IT (using the applications) from the more logical aspect, which I believe is wrong and there should be a good balance between the two.

 

My mum (who is a TA in Reception/Year 1) says it would be hard to get 5 year olds to start coding as there are children who can't understand the co-ordination of how moving their finger on the trackpad moves the mouse on the screen, and that there are children who have never even seen a computer before they started school.

 

Then again, according to Gove she is only a 'mum helper'.

[LosOjos]

I've not looked at Scratch, but realistically unless it employs IF/ELSEIF/ELSE and some form of conditional WHILE/LOOP then I can't see it being more than a glorified powerpoint. But like I say, I've not played with it. I know our IT suits have it, though.

 

It uses all of those things

[Ephelyon]

On a different note, considering this is a debate I've had over on TES as well, what do we think about languages? The general feeling over there from the teachers seemed to be that Python ought to be sufficient to satisfy the demands of the new curriculum, which I'd agree with.

 

Anyone else? Should we need things like C++ for example?

[smidsy]

@Garacesh Scratch does include loops and if statements in a nice graphical interface which children and even some of the teachers can understand. One of our year 3 classes (with some guidance) managed to create their own Ghost shooter games within a few ICT lessons. We have found this a very useful tool with our KS2 children.

[ICTLady]

I've not looked at Scratch, but realistically unless it employs IF/ELSEIF/ELSE and some form of conditional WHILE/LOOP then I can't see it being more than a glorified powerpoint. But like I say, I've not played with it. I know our IT suits have it, though.

 

Yes, Scratch has this. It's like a drag-and-drop RDA, you can build blocks of code. It has if/then/else and while/loop commands, triggers, variables. Worth a look at their site if you're interested in programming for kids.

[LosOjos]

Actually, the intro course to the degree I'm studying would make for an excellent KS4 curriculum I think:

 

TU100 - My digital life - Open University Course

 

BTW - Sense is a modified version of Scratch which adds functions for interacting with the SenseBoard, a simple Arduino-esque board with various sensors attached. It's also possible to interact with the board via serial *shameless-self-promotion* http://www.geekjosh.co.uk/blog/senseboard-raspberry-pi-making-talk-python/

Edited January 23, 2014 by LosOjos

[Ephelyon]

TU100 - My digital life - Open University Course

 

See, this is good, because while you've got this:

 

"Sense – a completely new approach to computing deserves to be taught in a completely new manner. Almost from the very beginning, you’ll be running, designing and writing computer programs. You will be using the specially designed language – Sense – so called because it can be used to sense the world.

 

Unlike other computer languages you may have seen or used, Sense doesn’t rely on cryptic text commands; instead you assemble Sense programs using graphical blocks. Creating a Sense program can be as simple as clicking two blocks together and pressing the Run button!

 

You’ll begin your work in Sense by following the first of many guided activities accompanied by text and video instructions. Soon you’ll be modifying existing programs and writing completely new ones of your own."

 

... you've also got this:

 

"My digital life isn’t just about reading. It’s about doing things and learning as you do them. Just some of the things you will do are:

•use a wide range of online services to create and share documents, spreadsheets and web pages

•create and combine images with a soundtrack to produce short audiovisual presentations

•learn how the technologies underpinning these activities work as you use them

•experience the benefits and limitations of a digital lifestyle and what the future might hold

•see how the internet makes your physical location less relevant in performing many tasks

•understand the significance of an increasing number of devices that know and respond to your location.

 

During the course of learning about these things you will address topics as diverse as:

•the ownership of data

•how the World Wide Web works

•the privacy and security of personal data

•online identity in virtual worlds

•how online businesses survive (or not)

•and many more aspects of living in the digital world of today."

 

Nice and balanced - unlike the potential skewing we're seeing reported on the topic at hand...

Edited January 23, 2014 by Ephelyon

[tmcd35]

On a different note, considering this is a debate I've had over on TES as well, what do we think about languages? The general feeling over there from the teachers seemed to be that Python ought to be sufficient to satisfy the demands of the new curriculum, which I'd agree with.

 

Anyone else? Should we need things like C++ for example?

 

Isn't there some odd-ball requirement about being able to code in 2 languages before starting high school? Are Scratch or Logo (turtle graphics) considered "languages" by the DfE? (I do).

 

Personally I'd say HTML with a bit of Javascript and maybe PHP on the side would be good. Pascal. Cobol. Basic. Whatever the teacher feels comfortable with (Scratch and Flowol then ).

[Ephelyon]

With the list you've given there, I guess it depends whether you want to open with web apps or not. I can see that going either way.

[LosOjos]

Nice and balanced - unlike the potential skewing we're seeing reported on the topic at hand...

 

I totally agree but I am under the impression that the former is what will become the computing lessons, with the latter being absorbed in to other subjects so across the curriculum students do get to learn all these things, it's just that they're not going to try to teach it all in an hour a week!

 

One of the major problems with this whole proposal is Gove - just like every other issue he sticks his nose in to, it's unclear, changes like the weather and nobody (himself included) seems to know what the hell he's getting at.

 

I hope that those actually responsible for designing the curriculum, however, are going to do things properly.

[ICTLady]

Anyone else of my age learn to code on a BBC Micro?

 

10 PRINT "You smell"

20 GOTO 10

 

Well, I was only 8

[tmcd35]

10 PRINT "You smell"

20 GOTO 10

 

 

Oh please, add a little colour -

 

 
10 for x=1 to 15
20 colour x
30 print "you smell! ";
40 next x
50 goto 10

 

If I remember rightly one of the "colours" flashes, which was a nice surprise as your messaged scrolled up the screen

 

[Garacesh]

Anyone else of my age learn to code on a BBC Micro?

 

10 PRINT "You smell"

20 GOTO 10

 

Well, I was only 8

 

GOTO's.. Release the raptors!

[Gibbo]

I like Gove because he upsets teachers.

 

But then he's the Education Secretary, they all have done. My ex used to moan about Blunkett, Ruth Kelly and all the others.

[tmcd35]

GOTO's.. Release the raptors!

 

10 let x=1
10 repeat
20 gosub 100
30 until x=0
100 for x=1 to 15
110 colour x
120 print "you smell! ";
130 next x
140 return

 

Better?

[Ephelyon]

I hope that those actually responsible for designing the curriculum, however, are going to do things properly.

@tmcd35, would what you've read on the new curriculum (linky?) seem to support that?

[Earthling]

Agreed, I find coding very boring, it used to be my job, but I couldn't see myself doing it for years and years. Forgotten most of it now, but know enough to work out someone elses code if required.

 

When I first got into Operations (1970) I lusted after getting into Programming. Then I transferred from Ops where I worked to Programming and after 9 months, I was begging to go back to Ops. Amending, updating, someone else's COBOL code was so full of disillusionment, I think it was one of the first big disappointments of my life. I preferred Assembler but there were no system programming jobs going. The 9-5 work day instead of three-shift work was good, but the work was stultifyingly dull. I settled for Ops and Tech Support and never looked for another programming job.

[tmcd35]

@tmcd35, would what you've read on the new curriculum (linky?) seem to support that?

 

I'm pretty sure this was it (haven't re-read): https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-curriculum-in-england-computing-programmes-of-study

 

And, no, as I said above, although it does mention other areas, it looks far too coding focused to my eyes. There seems to be a myth that teaching coding will teach how computer work, and this panders to that myth.