The Michael Gove BETT Speech

[JJonas]

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/michael-gove-speaks-about-computing-and-education-technology Edited January 22, 2014 by JJonas

[Gatt]

Hmm

 

Chrome is throwing an error I've never seen before

 

This page cannot be loaded due to a high volume of Verbal Diarrhoea[/Quote]

[JJonas]

Hmm

 

Chrome is throwing an error I've never seen before

 

He is still Education Secretary so I thought it might be helpful to post it, as we have to deal with the aftermath.

[CHR1S]

Anyone care to TLDR it for me....

[Garacesh]

As the Andy's might say.. "Wha' absolu'e 'orsesh:censored:"

 

ICT used to focus purely on computer literacy - teaching pupils, over and over again, how to word process, how to work a spreadsheet, how to use programs already creaking into obsolescence; about as much use as teaching children to send a telex or travel in a zeppelin.

Whilst I kinda-sorta-ish agree with that...

Now, our new curriculum teaches children computer science, information technology, and digital literacy: teaching them how to code, and how to create their own programs; not just how to work a computer; but how a computer works, and how to make it work for you.

Firstly, what the hell is 'digital literacy'? They learn literacy in English class. They don't need 'digital literacy' - they just need to know the layout of a keyboard. After 3 years of high-school ICT you'd expect them to have figured that out! Also I'd like to see this coding they're taught? About the closest thing is web design, and that's all done via WYSIWYG!

 

From 5, children will learn to code and program

Done. I'm out.

 

Moron.

[CAM]

Snapchat...Snapchat...Snapchat...

 

Sensing a running theme here.

[foofighterjim]

I'm sorry it is more than two lines. There is no way I’m going to read more than that from a politician.

[GeekyPete]

The bloke is undoubtedly an idiot. But the worst kind. An opinionated and ill informed idiot in a position of influence.

 

It's not an either or, people need to be able to use a computer as well as know how to code. But lets face it, ask your Mum if she needs to know how to send an email, post a pic on face book or white her own app to control a virtual robot and see what her answer is. My mum is 72 and can do 2 out of the three of them. Coding will be the calculus of the next generation. We all know it's really useful because we did it at school but we've never used it since we left.

 

If his telex analogy is true then we should also stop teaching handwriting and long division. But yet somehow still teach calculus. Surely it stands you in good stead to know how to use something before you figure out how it works. How many motor mechanics can't drive, Watch makers can't tell the time, Indian chefs don't eat curry? Teach people how to use a computer properly, see how useful it is, then show them how to code and make it better. Anyone who knows how to use a spreadsheet properly needs to know how to use VBA, Workprocessing is increasingly using XML.

 

This bloke and his whole co-hort need removing from their positions as soon as possible. It's now just a damage limitation excerise.

[sonofsanta]

I'm sorry, I opened the page, but then the photo of him was so smug I got angry and had to click away before I broke my monitor with my fist.

 

Really is a face not even a mother could love.

[pcstru]

Firstly, what the hell is 'digital literacy'? They learn literacy in English class. They don't need 'digital literacy' - they just need to know the layout of a keyboard. After 3 years of high-school ICT you'd expect them to have figured that out! Also I'd like to see this coding they're taught? About the closest thing is web design, and that's all done via WYSIWYG!

Digital literacy is basic use of a computer to do word processing, spreadsheet, presentations, use the internet etc. We find that not all students coming into secondary have good skills in this area and they are required across the curriculum. DL is distinct from 'computing' (how IT works technically) and 'Information Technology' (making IT work for people).

[pcstru]

Coding will be the calculus of the next generation. We all know it's really useful because we did it at school but we've never used it since we left.

I write some code certainly every week. I find the lack of coding skills in IT support people to be surprising and ... disappointing.

[Norphy]

I write some code certainly every week. I find the lack of coding skills in IT support people to be surprising and ... disappointing.

 

Why? Aside from the odd bit of scripting, coding isn't a part of my job.

[TechMonkey]

I feel a bit dirty but I am going to stick up for some of those ideas.

 

Why shouldn't 5 year olds do programming? Ok they aren't going to be programming the next big app but why shouldn't they start to understand about instructions and loops and boolean operators. Not necessarily using those terms but in a simplified manner? How many of us were guilty as small things of taking apart a new toy or something to see how it works?

I'm trying to remember who it was that was equating the lack of programming/pure math teaching with a lack of basic logic in the population. An understanding of IF THIS... THEN THIS is very powerful, not just in computing but as a transferable skill! Make children more familiar with what is happening and let them experiment. Consumption only goes so far, production develops skills much quicker and much deeper. How many times have we said on here that teaching Word and Excel and PowerPoint was a silly idea and we need to teach skills?

 

There is also the argument that we should be teaching children as wide a curriculum as possible to give them a taster of what is possible, so a smidgen of programming might ignite an interest in the next computing heavyweights.

 

The issue is how it is implemented to be as simple as possible for the classroom without trained computing (not ICT) teachers.

 

He is still an eejit though.

[tekins]

Why? Aside from the odd bit of scripting, coding isn't a part of my job.

 

Agreed, I find coding very boring, it used to be my job, but I couldn't see myself doing it for years and years. Forgotten most of it now, but know enough to work out someone elses code if required.

[FishCustard]

@TechMonkey - that's basically my feelings on getting children coding - it's unlikely to do harm, so why not? Kids may well not discover coding on their own, even if they'd love it if given the chance. Logical debugging/troubleshooting skills are another great transferable that you can get through learning to code.

 

Just because Gove is generally a prat doesn't mean that he can't have some good ideas.

[Garacesh]

Digital literacy is basic use of a computer to do word processing, spreadsheet, presentations, use the internet etc. We find that not all students coming into secondary have good skills in this area and they are required across the curriculum. DL is distinct from 'computing' (how IT works technically) and 'Information Technology' (making IT work for people).

So you mean 'technologically proficient' then? Stupid buzzwords. Nothing to do with Literacy. Grumble grumble.

 

Basically it - like so many other things - have been given a fancy-sounding but completely inaccurate name.

 

I'll agree to the importance of knowing how to craft a document, build an automatically-updating spreadsheet and create a presentation. But after 3 years of doing it in secondary school, you should know enough. Dump it once you hit GCSE years and then start with programming. Teaching a 5-year-old programming is near-useless. Even if you dumb it down to very simple levels there's much better use of their time. Too many kids are leaving primary school struggling to read or write. Let's make sure they fully understand their own native language before we try and teach them another - programming or otherwise.

 

Coding and programming are damn strong skills and we do need more people with the ability to do it. He may be a prat, but he's right on that point. But the implementation, I feel, is the wrong approach.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Garacesh

[pcstru]

Why? Aside from the odd bit of scripting, coding isn't a part of my job.

Tying pieces of technology together (for example google apps to our MIS via our AD domain). Automating frequent tasks for users and administrators. Providing bespoke functionality on various websites. Maintenance of the existing spaghetti. Slicing and dicing and presenting data in interesting ways.

[GeekyPete]

@TechMonkey - that's basically my feelings on getting children coding - it's unlikely to do harm, so why not? Kids may well not discover coding on their own, even if they'd love it if given the chance. Logical debugging/troubleshooting skills are another great transferable that you can get through learning to code.

 

Just because Gove is generally a prat doesn't mean that he can't have some good ideas.

 

Coding is not main stream and it never will be. The danger is that there are only so many teaching hours in a week. What will this be at the expense of? PE? Less maths or english? Science?

[FishCustard]

There are already dedicated hours in the primary curriculum for ICT, I would assume it'd use those?

[pcstru]

So you mean 'technologically proficient' then? Stupid buzzwords. Nothing to do with Literacy. Grumble grumble.

 

Basically it - like so many other things - have been given a fancy-sounding but completely inaccurate name.

IT has always been in competition with the cosmetic industry for making up new words or appropriating existing ones. "Digital Literacy" IMO is better than "Technologically proficient" but I'm not going to argue semantics.

I'll agree to the importance of knowing how to craft a document, build an automatically-updating spreadsheet and create a presentation. But after 3 years of doing it in secondary school, you should know enough. Dump it once you hit GCSE years and then start with programming. Teaching a 5-year-old programming is near-useless. Even if you dumb it down to very simple levels there's much better use of their time. Too many kids are leaving primary school struggling to read or write. Let's make sure they fully understand their own native language before we try and teach them another - programming or otherwise.

 

Coding and programming are damn strong skills and we do need more people with the ability to do it. He may be a prat, but he's right on that point. But the implementation, I feel, is the wrong approach.

 

I started coding when I was 11/12. The only reason I didn't start earlier was there simply wasn't the equipment available. There is no reason why children can't start at 5 with appropriate content. No one is talking about sticking a 5 year old in front of visual studio and knocking up a cross platform compiler in C++.

 

I think the intention with "Digital Literacy" is that it can be picked up cross curriculum - it's not a subject of itself. Learn to work a word processor in English, a spreadsheet in maths and science and any subject should be able to build students internet research skills. Computing and Information Technology are distinct subjects and it can only be good that they are not burdened by a curriculum chock full of rather basic, boring skills. No wonder kids were being turned off IT in droves.

[localzuk]

So you mean 'technologically proficient' then? Stupid buzzwords. Nothing to do with Literacy. Grumble grumble.

 

Basically it - like so many other things - have been given a fancy-sounding but completely inaccurate name.

 

I'll agree to the importance of knowing how to craft a document, build an automatically-updating spreadsheet and create a presentation. But after 3 years of doing it in secondary school, you should know enough. Dump it once you hit GCSE years and then start with programming. Teaching a 5-year-old programming is near-useless. Even if you dumb it down to very simple levels there's much better use of their time. Too many kids are leaving primary school struggling to read or write. Let's make sure they fully understand their own native language before we try and teach them another - programming or otherwise.

 

Coding and programming are damn strong skills and we do need more people with the ability to do it. He may be a prat, but he's right on that point. But the implementation, I feel, is the wrong approach.

 

If you teach English in isolation, you won't teach English. Teaching other subjects is very important at all ages.

 

Teaching programming is a very good idea, as it teaches logical thinking, diagnostics and deductive reasoning.

 

Coding is not main stream and it never will be. The danger is that there are only so many teaching hours in a week. What will this be at the expense of? PE? Less maths or english? Science?

 

ICT. The subject that has been on the curriculum for a couple of decades. Its a replacement for it - as ICT was a required subject up until Sept 2012. Why does it need to be in isolation though? Why can't it be integrated into other subjects?

Edited January 22, 2014 by localzuk

[TechMonkey]

Coding is not main stream and it never will be. The danger is that there are only so many teaching hours in a week. What will this be at the expense of? PE? Less maths or english? Science?

 

Who says it is main stream? Is Art, Food Tech, Music, Languages, and any other of the subjects students learn main stream & who decides that? So why do anything but the core 3? Going to extremes why spend so much time on science when 99% of the kids won't be scientists? & why at the expense, are you saying it is a waste of time learning something other than those subjects? Surely anything that broadens a students mind, vocabulary, skills and horizons is worthwhile and should be made time for.

 

To me this comes back to the the fact that the whole current teaching philosophy is wrong and misguided, that we have these ringfenced times where you get pumped with information about this subject, then we close that little box and go on to the next one with never the twain meeting.

 

I'll agree to the importance of knowing how to craft a document, build an automatically-updating spreadsheet and create a presentation.

This makes me weep! That is not IT!! That is office/presentation/business skills and teaching kids how to be happy little workers in a happy little cube.

 

I would say that teaching a child how something works, how your input has repercussions, how errors can creep in to systems, how you can have control over something and make it do what you want (which is a very empowering skill to a small child) is a fantastic opportunity.

 

I am gob smacked that on an IT technical forum we can not see the benefits of PROPER IT/computing teaching rather than the dreary watered down ICT.

[SovietRussia]

WOOO PROGRAMMING

 

Coming from a programmer, who was not really given any encouragement in school to "program", where I had to teach myself at home and have done since the age of 12 - it is about time that people realised that "IT" isnt Powerpoint, thats "Admin/Officey stuff" - IT is about creating and developing amazing experiences, which I do as a programmer and then combine that with my role as an IT Tech, I get to create amazing experiences for students, to benefit their learning.

 

BUT - Most kids don't want to do programming in school, I was certainly the only one in my class who went above and beyond, its not for everyone - lots of people find it very boring but i love it.

Edited January 22, 2014 by SovietRussia

[FishCustard]

This makes me weep! That is not IT!! That is office/presentation/business skills and teaching kids how to be happy little workers in a happy little cube.

 

^This^

 

Here students study coding from (at least) Year 9 onwards, and have generally found it a challenging but far more interesting alternative to 'make a PowerPoint animation' and 'calculate these figures and make a chart' (like I did in my IT GCSE!).

 

We should be training potential software developers, not restricting kids to the mindset of 'IT = Office'. How long do you think it will be before the 'cube worker' jobs are mostly automated away anyway?

[Sdrawkcab]

Just because Gove is generally a prat doesn't mean that he can't have some good ideas.

 

 

It's such a poorly thought out idea though. Where are all these code-literate teachers to teach this new curriculum? Why would a computer science grad ever go on to do a PGCE? That career path would mean on average 8k less starting salary plus 1000x more stress in the job.

 

My Mum is a maths teacher and she's been drafted in to teach the new computing curriculum at her school. The thing is, she gets stressed and frustrated if she has to do anything more technical than plugging a USB stick in. According to her, this is a common theme amongst all the schools in her LEA - there aren't enough teachers with knowledge of the subject to teach the subject and there seems to be no plans to train existing teachers up either.

 

It's a great idea but, like a lot of things our government like to do, it's so poorly thought that I'd be suprised if this improves anything at all for most students.