Willott Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 i dont think anyone is saying science never gets things wrong but at least there is a method for examining and testing findings and in theory when something can be disproved you learn almost as much by being wrong you move on adjust your theories and test the new set. People are people so they pick questions to suit their needs etc and we have evolved to spot patterns wether they are meaningful or not which can send people down the wrong path. Not my point - as my comment has been taken out of context - context was 2 varying opinions, MMR vaccine may have been a bit too extreme an example. Although I think your comment points out something simple - the wrong path is a matter of opinion. In the end, I would love for you all to become Christian, but I'm not going to force you, that's not what I believe I have been called to do. I believe everyone has free will to make their own choice, I may provide the odd insight or bit of information, but the choice is anyones if they want to find out more... no SafeStyle Christian Sales tactics here
ht6 Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 can it so jesus fed the 5000 for instance how can you prove or disprove it 1000's of years after the fact from what at best is 3rd hand documentary evicence. Christmas has sheperds birthing lambs but is in december iirc lambs are born nearer march so christmas pretty much cant be in december And no where in the bible does it say it's in December...
E_G_R2 Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 I think we all understand that Christmas was a hijacking of a pagan festival so don't get bogged down in that one 2
Garacesh Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 So yes, it does take faith to be an atheist. Since you can't prove there is no God, it takes a leap of faith to believe that there is no God. Like it takes a leap of faith for me to believe there is a God. No. You are entirely wrong. There is something commonly known in the scientific community as 'The Burden of Proof', which basically defines who it is supplies evidence. You (as in the Christian community) are declaring there is a God. The burden of proof is on you. I do not have to disprove your God. You have to prove God's existence to me if you want me to accept your claim. Until you prove your claim, I do not have to accept it, and that is what Atheism is. Atheism is the lack of any belief in a God. It is logical and it is indifferent. I do not believe in God no more and no less than I do not believe in Zeus, Thor or, to expand it beyond deities, the Tooth Fairy. This is not faith.
pcstru Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 So yes, it does take faith to be an atheist. Since you can't prove there is no God, it takes a leap of faith to believe that there is no God. Like it takes a leap of faith for me to believe there is a God. By that logic you have to have an infinite amount of faith simply to not believe all the incredible things that cannot be disproven. Just ask my invisible pink flying unicorns - they will soon put you straight on that. I'm a sceptic. I have faith in an axiom that where things are true, there is evidence for them. I'm rather mean about my axioms and I try to have as little faith as possible. Where someone posits something incredible, then the emphasis is on them to provide evidence in support of their claim. Resorting to "well, ha, but prove it doesn't exist" is rather risible. You can't prove a negative.
featured_spectre Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 But there is a film about Thor, so he must be real, same with Jesus, the tooth fairy and Santa! 1
E_G_R2 Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 Garacesh! So what is the 'smoking gun' that would say to you God Exists?
ht6 Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 But there is a film about Thor, so he must be real, same with Jesus, the tooth fairy and Santa! Way to add value to the discussion. At least we were trying to keep it meaningful and respectful before you piped in.
localzuk Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 Faith: Complete trust or confidence in someone or something. As in a leap of faith. You take the leap in the 'faith' that you land safely. So yes, it does take faith to be an atheist. Since you can't prove there is no God, it takes a leap of faith to believe that there is no God. Like it takes a leap of faith for me to believe there is a God. No. It DOES NOT take faith to be an atheist. The absence of belief is not 'someone or something'. Why would someone who doesn't believe in something at all need to prove that it doesn't exist. It doesn't matter to them, it has no relevance or place in their life! I wake up in the morning, and live my life without thinking "I don't believe in God". I simply don't believe in any deity. It doesn't enter my psyche as something I need to make a conscious decision about - it just doesn't matter to me.
ht6 Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 It doesn't matter to them, it has no relevance or place in their life! Glad it matters so little to you that you feel the need to reply to these sorts of threads. That's the pinnacle of 'not caring'
localzuk Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 Glad it matters so little to you that you feel the need to reply to these sorts of threads. That's the pinnacle of 'not caring' The question originally was one of trying to understand. Trying to understand how people can believe in an all powerful god enough to thank them for sparing their pooch, whilst seemingly ignoring the devastation that has also been caused. Understanding means tolerance and acceptance. Correcting things that people are saying later in the thread is pretty useful I feel, as perpetuating misconceptions is always a bad thing - it leads to further misunderstanding.
Greenbeast Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 so we either care enough to respond and we have 'belief' or we don't respond with logic and our point of view isn't heard. great alternatives.....
Willott Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 The call to "prove it doesn't exist" is the refuge of the illogical and irrational. By all means have faith and belief, but recognise them for what they are and know how they are different from science and rational scepticism. "Prove it doesn't exist" is referred to in Science as "prove it's caused by something else rather than what bob over there thinks exists" isn't it?
ht6 Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 so we either care enough to respond and we have 'belief' or we don't respond with logic and our point of view isn't heard. great alternatives..... Localz argument is it doesn't take faith because he doesn't care about it. Yet he does care because he has come on here to throw his 2 pence in the mixer.
Greenbeast Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 as per his response above, he cares about misconceptions being repeated, not the existence (or not) of a deity
localzuk Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 Localz argument is it doesn't take faith because he doesn't care about it. Yet he does care because he has come on here to throw his 2 pence in the mixer. Read my reply. I explain pretty thoroughly why I care about a thread like this. Also, I care about the subject of religion as it is so often used to try and dictate how our society behaves. For example, the Church getting all upset about gay marriage. Your religion often ends up interfering with my life (sunday trading laws, places serving fish on a Friday because of Catholicism etc...).
X-13 Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 Did anyone mention Nazis yet? Not yet. I think we're close.
pcstru Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 (edited) "Prove it doesn't exist" is referred to in Science as "prove it's caused by something else rather than what bob over there thinks exists" isn't it? This is falsification. A theory is falsified when a single piece of evidence exists that contradicts it. So you disprove Newtons theory of Gravitation by measuring the orbit of Mercury (or any other object) to a particular precision and finding evidence that mercury don't quite move around the sun as it should, according to that theory. Any scientific theory is open to falsification and experiments are generally designed to try and falsify, not confirm a theory. In fact you can never PROVE a theory is entirely correct. With 'god' (which one btw?) there is no possibility of falsifying the theory. How do you prove god doesn't exist? When a 'theory' has no possibility of being falsified, it is not even in the same league as a scientific theory. Edited May 22, 2013 by pcstru
Garacesh Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 Localz argument is it doesn't take faith because he doesn't care about it. Yet he does care because he has come on here to throw his 2 pence in the mixer. So yes, it does take faith to be an atheist. Since you can't prove there is no God, it takes a leap of faith to believe that there is no God. Like it takes a leap of faith for me to believe there is a God. Your counter-argument is to either attacking our character (in the case of Localz) or by trying to reduce my argument ("Hey, you guys have faith too!") - I sense there is no use replying to you anymore. Garacesh! So what is the 'smoking gun' that would say to you God Exists? Dunno. But that's not on me to declare. You go ahead and submit your evidence that to you proves the existence of a God, and I will evaluate that evidence and tell you if it meets my criteria. If it does not, I will inform you why in a logical manner. For example, I decline your current submission of evidence (the Bible) because the God it describes cannot exist. I give you the Omnipotence Paradox: Can God make a boulder so heavy that he himself cannot lift it? 1
E_G_R2 Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 " tell you if it meets my criteria " Thats a start then so I don't just get some old bloke dressed in white with a beard and say here he is. List please
Willott Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 Also, I care about the subject of religion as it is so often used to try and dictate how our society behaves. For example, the Church getting all upset about gay marriage. Your religion often ends up interfering with my life (sunday trading laws, places serving fish on a Friday because of Catholicism etc...). Where did the definition of Marriage come from in the first place? Sunday trading laws, although partly about the Christian's traditional church attendance day is also to do with the idea of a traditional working week, and keeping time available for people to relax and not have to work - would you like schools to be in on Saturday and Sunday as well, just rotating staff? Fish Friday - yep, that's Catholic, but most places serve other stuff as well... and I'l sure if I checked with my father-in-law (Professor of Metabolic Physiology) he'd suggest that having fish as part of your diet is a good thing.
localzuk Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 Where did the definition of Marriage come from in the first place? No idea. Marriage pre-dates recorded history. It certainly isn't a Christian thing, that's for sure.
Willott Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 I give you the Omnipotence Paradox: Can God make a boulder so heavy that he himself cannot lift it? Google has plenty of arguments and counter arguments over that...
X-13 Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 @X-13 is arguing one cannot have free will if God has planned our actions (although the earlier analogy of having a basic plan could be applied, the question still stands, is it truly 'free will' if there's a fixed goal, however general? Sort of... The way I've always understood the concept of "God's plan" is that any choice you make, you don't actually make. God made that choice. So, if I came down to where you are and slapped you in the face, I didn't do that. God made me do it because it's part of His plan.
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now