Dos_Box Posted February 26, 2013 Posted February 26, 2013 I'm not posting this up as a pro or anti climate change debate, but this entry posted up by MP Douglas Carswell in his blog are quire revealing as is the link about the life expectancy of wind turbines (not so green if you have to replace them after 10-15 years - in fact they could be very carbon un-neutral!). Anyway, links here: Douglas Carswell | Home Wear and Tear Hits Wind Farm Output and Economic Lifetime This should make for some interesting lunchtime chat!
CAM Posted February 26, 2013 Posted February 26, 2013 An engineering friend of mine said the same thing years back, glad to see it's finally reached someone further up! He described wind farms as a waste as they took more energy to produce and assemble then they would ever return.
Duke5A Posted February 26, 2013 Posted February 26, 2013 I'm not posting this up as a pro or anti climate change debate, but this entry posted up by MP Douglas Carswell in his blog are quire revealing as is the link about the life expectancy of wind turbines (not so green if you have to replace them after 10-15 years - in fact they could be very carbon un-neutral!). Global Warming or not, one thing we can all agree on is that there will be people gaming the debate on both sides to make money. In my state we just defeated a proposal last November that would have upped the state's percentage of power that is generated from renewable resources from 10% to 25% by 2020. Of course if you looked at the funding going into the ad campaign in favor of this a large portion was coming from firms that have stakes in renewable energy. The proposal would have made this law by amending the state constitution. Think of the children/environment can be strong motivational rally cries for a cause. I'm just glad we saw through this one.
dhicks Posted February 26, 2013 Posted February 26, 2013 Wear and Tear Hits Wind Farm Output and Economic Lifetime So we need to engineer a better solution. Oil and gas will run out, but while they last the UK should re-invest the revenue in development of renewable energy systems - we live on an island buffeted by winds, wind and wave turbines would seem to be the logical things to specialise in. 2
unixman_again Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 There's plenty of unmined coal left in the UK. Build a couple of nice, big coal fired power stations (with coal fired stations, bigger = better) and all of the household power shortages go away.
zag Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 (edited) This is simple right wing politics, its a vote winner to oppose wind farms in some places in the country. Anything can be made "uneconomical" by simply presenting a certain set of statistics. The economics do stack up, just look at what Germany and Denmark are doing. In 10 years we will look back and admire their shift away from Nuclear and Fossil Fuels. Although saying that they have a big Green Party influence over there. Edited February 27, 2013 by zag
witch Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 (edited) There's plenty of unmined coal left in the UK. Build a couple of nice, big coal fired power stations (with coal fired stations, bigger = better) and all of the household power shortages go away. ....and never mind the pollution.... I agree with @zag - statistics are a wonderful thing. We should definitely be looking at Germany where they have changed the whole face of energy production successfully. http://www.businessweek.com/ap/2012-10-29/german-official-renewable-energy-beats-forecasts Edited February 27, 2013 by witch
Achandler Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 I have heard (from someone who looked at places for wind farms), that the actual cost of a turbine was more then double the amount of energy it would produce in value. It has been known for a long time they aren't carbon neutral but people accept them more willingly then other methods of energy production. Personally I would like to see tidal being done more, estimates for the Severn Barrier would be capable of producing 5% of the UK Energy needs, but as with every product they are expensive and always someone doesn't like the idea. http://planetearth.nerc.ac.uk/blogs/post.aspx?id=1037&pid=367
Geoff Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 Don't tidal barrages trash the local marine environment?
Achandler Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 Honestly, I don't know, it seems to depend on where you read about it.
dhicks Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 There's plenty of unmined coal left in the UK. There's a huge great nuclear fusion reactor sitting a mere 1AU away, if anything we should be concentrating on getting energy from that.
Guest Guest Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 Solar isn't there yet. Last time I looked I calculated that even with the best panels we would need an area greater than the UK to produce enough power for the UK. And that's before you take night and winter into account. ATM the only viable option IMO is nuclear.
carvjo Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 89.5% of all statistics are made up! ..I once posted on a forum something like "so much for global warming, I had to scrape the ice from my windscreen today.." The flames I received from 'green' people!
Dos_Box Posted February 27, 2013 Author Posted February 27, 2013 ....and never mind the pollution.... I agree with @zag - statistics are a wonderful thing. We should definitely be looking at Germany where they have changed the whole face of energy production successfully. German official: renewable energy beats forecasts - Businessweek Yes, but in the meantime, like us, they are closing power plants before they have anything to take up the slack. It's all right though as they are buying nuclear power from France and the Czech Republic: Greenwashing after the Phase-Out: German 'Energy Revolution' Depends on Nuclear Imports - SPIEGEL ONLINE Personally I think we should be investing heavily in Thorium research and power plants. The point I was hinting at in my first post is that wind turbines are simply not viable as a 'green source of power generation. They cost more to make than they produce, their production creates more carbon than they save (even more now they will need replacing a lot sooner than expected) and you still need the same amount of power plants to provide the electricity they are not generating when there is no wind i.e when it is very very cold, and you cannot simply turn conventional power plants off and on. As for global warming: Global warming stopped 16 years ago, Met Office report reveals: MoS got it right about warming... so who are the 'deniers' now? | Mail Online Met Office: global warming predictions revised down - Channel 4 News For oil as well there is no shortage.In the past oil reserves were dictated by just how much the big oil companies could access, however, as technology moves on, reserves that were previously inaccessible such as around western Scotland and the Falklands can now be reached. That is not to say that I'm all for oil based power for electricty generation and transport, I'm not, I can't wait for decent alternatives to become viable and not the current 'gimmicks' we have now. The need to panic is not there. The only thing we should be concerned about is the closing of current plants (many before their end-of-life) with nothing to replace them.
witch Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 As for global warming: Global warming stopped 16 years ago, Met Office report reveals: MoS got it right about warming... so who are the 'deniers' now? | Mail Online "Global warming stopped" That's the MAIL you are quoting there! The rate of increase may have slowed down but it hasn't stopped. Revised down is more like it. I agree that we need to keep with what we have but work a lot harder to provide viable alternatives - cold fusion anyone? As for wind farms being uneconomic - same goes for battery powered cars - yes they pollute less where they are but the batteries are not very long-lived and uneconomic to produce not to mention the electricity they use
Dos_Box Posted February 27, 2013 Author Posted February 27, 2013 "Global warming stopped" That's the MAIL you are quoting there! The rate of increase may have slowed down but it hasn't stopped. Revised down is more like it. I agree that we need to keep with what we have but work a lot harder to provide viable alternatives - cold fusion anyone? As for wind farms being uneconomic - same goes for battery powered cars - yes they pollute less where they are but the batteries are not very long-lived and uneconomic to produce not to mention the electricity they use I did also include a Channel 4 news link
dhicks Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 Solar isn't there yet. Oh, absolutly - in the short / medium term we'll be relying on fossil fuels, but we should be using the time and revenue gained from being blessed with an abundance of north sea oil / coal / whatever to develope the UK as a centre of excellence for renewable energy and space technology engineering, not propping up financial institutions. The same thing goes for physics, engineering and maths graduates - rocket scientists should be off building rockets, not messing around with stock-trading algorythms.
zag Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 Yeh it takes 20 years to change an Energy Mix. If we don't start now we will simply have to rely on importing gas from Russia and Norway for the next 20 years.
pcstru Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 Wear and Tear Hits Wind Farm Output and Economic Lifetime "This decline in performance means that it is rarely economic to operate wind farms for more than 12 to 15 years. After this period they must be replaced with new machines, a finding that has profound consequences for investors and government alike." Really? The whole machine? Not just the magnets or other parts of the generator? Wind turbines are relatively simple machines with a substantial proportion of the upfront capital cost in the major structural components and the actual erection or the structure (this is especially true of offshore). Even if you need to replace the whole genset, that will be a fraction of the upfront capital cost and after 15 years it just might make sense anyway as new gensets may be smaller and more efficient for the same volume. I don't know who REF are, but that report is highly suspicious.
localzuk Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 (edited) Don't tidal barrages trash the local marine environment? It depends massively on the type of turbines used, how much of the tidal bore is harnessed etc... If you go for the full "slap a massive barrier across and block the river except for locks and turbines" then yes, it will reduce the water to the mudflats and may cause issues with fish migration. However, it will also allow a much better control of tidal flooding, and generate a fifth of the domestic power for the country. So, its a balancing act. 89.5% of all statistics are made up! ..I once posted on a forum something like "so much for global warming, I had to scrape the ice from my windscreen today.." The flames I received from 'green' people! And quite rightly so, as its a stupid comment which is either a massive troll or shows a complete lack of understanding of what global warming and climate change are. I'm sticking to my thoughts on nuclear personally - thorium based reactor research should be at the top of our agenda, along with fusion reactors. Edited February 27, 2013 by localzuk
pcstru Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 I agree that we need to keep with what we have but work a lot harder to provide viable alternatives - cold fusion anyone? If there was anything in it, there should have been reliable evidence by now. Sadly Cold Fusion is now mostly the province of woo merchants. As for wind farms being uneconomic - same goes for battery powered cars - yes they pollute less where they are but the batteries are not very long-lived and uneconomic to produce not to mention the electricity they use An electric vehicle can be cheaper right now, in certain circumstances, even taking into account a limited battery life and a high replacement cost. So it's a bit problematic to say it is simply uneconomic.
CHR1S Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 Lets give some perspective on energy use here and abroad. The Hoover Dam provides enough power for 25% of Las Vegas power needs and a large portion of the states around it (So the tour guide told me - 4.2 TWh/year - from wiki). 2,355 TWh/year is the average consumption for the entire UK At the beginning of March 2012, the installed capacity of wind power in the United Kingdom was 6,580 megawatts (MW) That's only approx 3% of our needs. There was an 11% increase in the use of nuclear power in 2011, which helped to bring greenhouse gas emissions down 7% on the previous year. Still only meets 16% of our needs - 69 TWh
witch Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 An electric vehicle can be cheaper right now, in certain circumstances, even taking into account a limited battery life and a high replacement cost. So it's a bit problematic to say it is simply uneconomic. Cheaper isn't the issue at all . My point was that electric cars use a lot of resources and so are not "green" at all: See here: BBC News - Electric cars 'pose environmental threat'
Guest Guest Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 What about geothermal? If Iceland/etc could split water into hydrogen and oxygen and ship it off to other countries to be cleanly burned... Dhicks- I agree, it's the future. But for now, IMO nuclear is the best stopgap measure
Andrew_C Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 (edited) Solar could work, it is doing well in Germany. However, there are vested interests that really don't want us generating any proportion of out own power. Why? They can't charge you for it! On the flip side, there would have to be development of the infrastructure to deal with a "distributed generation" system. Having just been to Iceland, I doubt the nimbies would accept a full scale geothermal plant on their doorstep. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/Andrew_C/P1010118Kraflasteamvent_zps5dfff40c.jpg Edited February 27, 2013 by Andrew_C
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