jcollings

Well I've had enough now - I think Tony's post is excellent and perhaps the right place to lock and end the thread?

By that logic we don't need most legislation - after all the majority don't do it. Legislation only exists to act against the minority!

I'm not suggesting the police are perfect by nay means - there is racism in the police just as anywhere but I don't think they are as bad as painted. On the whole I think they do a good job. ASBO's aren't a cure all or magic formula but they give some leverage and it is part of a process. So do you not want them to be able to remove undesirables from the street? Do you not see youth antisocial behaviour is a major issue at the moment? My son's friend was kicked and beaten to death a while back in what police described as one of the most horrendous attacks they had seen - why? Because the lads didn't like what she was wearing! Now said gang of lads had been running wild for a long time but the police struggled to nail them cos their "civil liberties" were protected - with more power a lovely young woman could have still been enjoying her life but hey it's ok - the lads civil liberties weren't infringed so it's doesn't matter.

Agreed but there isn't a huge amount you can do to stop it is there. If the government decide they want a law passed they will pass it. We can only deal with the here and now and right now an ID card doesn't give the police any more power than they already have which is what I've said all along. To change things needs mass protest where so many people object there is no choice but to change the law e.g poll tax riots.

FAQs and Myths - Identity and Passport Service Item 2 - Myth: The police can demand to see your card Answer: The police have no new powers associated with the scheme and they will not be able to stop you and demand to see your card.

Giving your name and address - generally the police don’t have the right to demand your name and address apart from in certain circumstances. For example if they have reason to believe you are or were acting in an antisocial manner. If you then refuse to tell them, you are committing an offence and could be arrested, and they could go on to search you. And yes - I have read ASBO laws etc. Do I want the police to be able to move on groups of boozed up kids terrorising neighbourhoods - dead right I do. Of course in your view it would infringe their civil rights but what of the civil rights of the folks in that area - should they have to put up with anti-social behaviour. I think not.

I am after a new core switch for our network. Needs at least 16 1Gbit fibre ports and 16 copper 1Gbit ports but I guess more would be better for future new builds. Any ideas? We currently have a 3Com 4050 but it's full!

That's a plan - gets so damn warm in that place. ;-) Could open up a whole new line of freebies - I'm sick of getting pens. Microsoft Fig Leaf anyone?

I do know law and find you to be patronising. How do you know the law will be different with ID cards? They may only be asked for if you are suspected of something. Of course the BNP can break laws to protest - it's called freedom of speech. I spend a great deal of time in politics so won't be sleepwalking anywhere. Some laws such as ASBO law is very useful and helps control problems. Please don't talk down to me in future.

But you can be asked to prove who you are now or risk fines etc - no difference. You see the assumption is there again that there will be a new law making you produce it on demand. Why am I less free just because I am filmed? Of course it makes sense - people should and are able to protest at will. We live in one of the most liberal countries in the world - spend time in China, Zimbabwe,Iraq, Iran et al - they understand what repression is.

My point exactly - it doesn't matter what the law says. Both protests were illegal but enough people got behind it and the authorities could do nothing to stop it. @localzuk - as I said you don't know me or what I've been involved in. I also don't feel that you need to resort to personal insults as I haven't therefore I think I'm going to ignore your comments from now. I think calling people stuipd and ignorant is way out of line especially when you have no idea what I really believe or stand for. @torledo - agreed - I can think of much better ways to spend the money but I can also think of much better ways to spend the billions wasted on sending soldiers to Iraq and Afghanistan etc. in a pointless and illegal war which I have spent many hours on the street protesting about. On the whole I probably agree that ID cards make little difference to crime etc and are not going to solve any issues (except mean I don't have to have a passport for ID) but the point is neither are we going to suddenly create a police state if we have them. In truth I don't really care if we have them or not. It's the idea (as with all these things) that introducing X,Y or Z measure suddenly restricts us in some way. The great social movements of our time don't care if the law says it's ok to do something - they just do it. The miners didn't say "oh flying pickets are banned - better not do it then" - they carried on.

Erm - you don't actually know me so don't assume what I have and haven't experienced. So your face is recorded - big deal - I don't do anything wrong so it doesn't matter. Ditto supermarket. This "civil liberties are infringed" is so much Sun and Daily Mail reader. Bottom line - if you want to protest and enough people agree you can do it - we are policed by consent. To be honest I'd quite like to infringe the rights of some people eg. the BNP - the rise of nutters like that is more frightening than anything this government has introduced.

I think you miss the point - it will make no difference to restrictions. If a government wants to oppress/remove human rights (and I'm not sure I see where this is already happening) it will do it full stop - it has happened so many times card or no card. My privacy or freedom is no different than it was 20 years ago.

This is where I have an issue - ID card or not oppresive reigemes flourish. I don't think there is a relationship. If a government wants to impose itself it will do it regardless of card carrying as China, Zimbabwe and Iraq to name but a few show.

nor vice versa - but debate is good and quite enjoyable ;-)

But how do I open a bank account - I don't have a passport or a photocard driving licence for the sake of argument. A national system that everyone is part of makes sense.

So I have to have a passport to function now? Why should I - I don't need or want one. And no I don't thin it's a cure all but I don't think it causes this massive loss of freedom that everyone bangs on about.

That's rather the point - "the overwhelming evidence" doesn't exist. There are a minor amount of issues that are over reported which take no account of the many thousands of hours and cases of solid police work that is done.

OK - for that matter - what info is stored on your photocard driving licence? You think you know whats on it but you don't know for sure. Any info could be put on it or in your passport for that matter by stealth. Thin end of a wedge is just tabloid reactionary nonsense.

I don't have a passport and the amount of things that ask for one is crazy. Lots of people don't have a driving licence. A national ID card gives 1 common form of ID.

You can't possibly say it won't have an impact 'cos we haven't had them to find out. As I said previously having them doesn't make a difference to you walking down the street. I don't think having them will equip the police with psychic powers so they'll be none the wiser!

I take the opposite view - I think the amount of "abuse" will be small compared to the crimes it will help solve. I think the majority of police services are good and honest and do the job well.

But all this happens now! DNA won't suddenly increase that. It's just another scientific tool - would you not want them using fingerprints, CCTV images, other chemical testing eg. firearms residue? All of these can and have been mixed up in the past!

And being on a dna database makes no difference to this. All the dna database does is allow tracking down of criminals easier. If a young person does something wrong now and is convicted it expires - it would be no different if they were on a dna database.

And how would carrying an ID card or having a DNA database give them an idea of who you are. You'd still have the above situation. If they have grounds to stop you they can still make you prove your ID now. Law abiding people will still be able to carry on as normal.