tmcd35 Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 Interestingly, Peru has basically said their country wide 1:1 OLPC project is an abject failure - it hasn't made any difference to education at all, for a cool cost of $225m. The reason? They just dumped laptops on everyone. No integration into curriculum etc... - ie. it was technology first, education second. If someone can show me a proper thought out curriculum and a way to properly use ipads in a 1:1 system, and also show an increase in outcomes, then I may change my view, but until then I'll continue to see it the same - people being amazed by shiny things. Can you say that the cost, which here would be about £138k just for the devices, add in repairs, replacements, software, wireless network etc... and you're looking at £250k, is worth it? They still can't do everything you need to do in a school, so you'd need to maintain some systems to deal with them (admin, media related stuff, word processing, etc...). Which is why we've started from the other end, by giving devices in limited numbers to staff first. It's not my job to write their schemes of work! I can honestly see the benefits of the device if used properly. I honestly don't think the benefits can be realised until you are on a 1:1 ratio. I do think it would be money well spent, I think projectors and laptops are money well spent (I may agree with you on IWB's). Time will tell, and ultimately it's the heads decision and his vision for the school. I'm just recommending one option because I believe it is the right one and it is my job to make these recommendations.
localzuk Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 Which is why we've started from the other end, by giving devices in limited numbers to staff first. It's not my job to write their schemes of work! I can honestly see the benefits of the device if used properly. I honestly don't think the benefits can be realised until you are on a 1:1 ratio. I do think it would be money well spent, I think projectors and laptops are money well spent (I may agree with you on IWB's). Time will tell, and ultimately it's the heads decision and his vision for the school. I'm just recommending one option because I believe it is the right one and it is my job to make these recommendations. So, using your figures of £100k a year costs, you think that ipads will give better results than say an extra 3 or so teachers, or 8 TAs?
X-13 Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 (edited) Like? Our ICT, Art, Media, Drama, and Music teacher would all disagree with you. We have 10 iPads, one for each department, for teacher to experiment with. Just today I passed some students wondering around the school creating a video with the ICT department one. And I'm having to slow the music teacher down somewhat - she wants to dump all her PC's for iPad with Garageband, and is looking to buy guitar adapters for her current department one. To my mind the iPad mini is (almost) the right price, the right size, and the app store has the right apps available. No other device I can find matches the form factor with the price and, more importantly, the range of quality apps. Nexus 7? Asus Eee Transformer? Windows tablets? If you're running an apple network, iDevices would be good. Windows networks however... When I say "creating things" I mean text-wise. Art-wise it's just a fancy sketchpad. Music-wise it's a fancy keyboard. I've always found it awkward to type on tablets, unless they have good handwriting recognition. As for apps... What's wrong with Android apps? A lot of the apps I've seen are multiplatform, so they're on iTunes[?] and the Google Store. [i've never looked at Windows apps, so I can't comment on them.] Edited October 24, 2012 by X-13
SYNACK Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 There is still no proper stylus either. Yes, they can be useful in conjunction, if you want precision of intent as opposed to blunt grunts of intent from a fingertip.
elsiegee40 Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 There is still no proper stylus either. Yes, they can be useful in conjunction, if you want precision of intent as opposed to blunt grunts of intent from a fingertip. David Hockney doesn't seem to have any problem with precision on an iPad. The stuff he's done is amazing!
tmcd35 Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 (edited) So, using your figures of £100k a year costs, you think that ipads will give better results than say an extra 3 or so teachers, or 8 TAs? By that logic we should rip out all the computers and put the chalkboards back up. (That said, I'm very pleased I'm not the one being paid to make those kinds of decisions). When I say "creating things" I mean text-wise. Art-wise it's just a fancy sketchpad. Music-wise it's a fancy keyboard. I've always found it awkward to type on tablets, unless they have good handwriting recognition. Erm, I take it you've not used Garageband then? Can you recommend me a good Android alternative to AmpKit+? How about attaching a keyboard and using Pages? Hell, is there a good android alternative to Pages? EDIT: The only reason for me recommending iPad's is app availability. Android doesn't seem to have good alternatives to Garageband or Pages or Keynote, etc. And Windows 8, well it's doesn't have any apps (the store was quiet barren last time I looked). If the app availability on other platforms changes, then so will my opinion. (I do like ICS as an OS). Edited October 24, 2012 by tmcd35
SYNACK Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 David Hockney doesn't seem to have any problem with precision on an iPad. The stuff he's done is amazing! Good for him, great photographers can take great shots with a disposable camera. Some of us need the extra help though, not everyone is an actual artist and definatly not every Apple user is.
localzuk Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 (edited) By that logic we should rip out all the computers and put the chalkboards back up. (That said, I'm very pleased I'm not the one being paid to make those kinds of decisions). That's the thing - we should be looking at education outcomes and seeing if the stuff we're spending money on is actually worth it. We need to use IT in schools because that's what we use outside schools - so in and of itself, IT is a subject and needs teaching. Using tablets is not currently the norm in all other aspects of life, so you're advocating using technology for other subjects. So, in a way, its 2 different things. Erm, I take it you've not used Garageband then? Can you recommend me a good Android alternative to AmpKit+? How about attaching a keyboard and using Pages? Hell, is there a good android alternative to Pages? You know what can do all those things? A laptop. Or a desktop... You know the other thing? They've been able to do it for more than 10 years. I remember using Fruity Loops as a kid on a pentium 2. Not to mention, do all kids need to be able to play in Garage Band in every lesson? No? And why pages on a tablet? You just advocated using a keyboard with it - why not just provide a laptop? Edited October 24, 2012 by localzuk 1
X-13 Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 Erm, I take it you've not used Garageband then? Can you recommend me a good Android alternative to AmpKit+? How about attaching a keyboard and using Pages? Hell, is there a good android alternative to Pages? No, no I have not. I'm not sure what AmpKit+ does... But, what about these. Pages is iOS Word? What about these? Keyboard? Boom.
Theblacksheep Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 And Windows 8, well it's doesn't have any apps (the store was quiet barren last time I looked). If the app availability on other platforms changes, then so will my opinion. Except for all the millions of x86 apps that are already available and work fine in Windows 8.
tmcd35 Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 I'm not sure what AmpKit+ does... But, what about these. Pages is iOS Word? What about these? Thank you, two lists that prove my point on app quality. I'm sure there are other examples out there.
tmcd35 Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 Except for all the millions of x86 apps that are already available and work fine in Windows 8. Good luck using them with the touch screen, I'm sure there's a reason why the touch versions of XP and 7 were so hugely successful!
X-13 Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 Thank you, two lists that prove my point on app quality. I'm sure there are other examples out there. So, you've used every single one of them and can honestly say they're bad?
localzuk Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 Except for all the millions of x86 apps that are already available and work fine in Windows 8. Only on x86, not RT.
sonofsanta Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 Tablets are, undoubtedly, going to be massive for education, once there is an affordable, manageable product with good battery life. I don't think the iPad mini is the device we're waiting for, though. It's still designed for consumers rather than enterprise, so isn't easily manageable (and this is where MS missed a trick with RT). It's still too damned expensive. What we need for students is a colour e-ink device with a capacitive touch screen. Battery life would be in the days rather than hours, and the eye strain would be infinitely better. They'd be cheaper. More robust. Make them manageable and controllable and you're well away. Staff can have full fat iPad/Android/Win8 style tablets as they'll be able to make more use of the power and the greater screen capabilities. Have NFC built in to everything so the teacher can drag work over from kids' tablets, fling resources out to everyone, throw stuff up to the projector. Give them a docking station and they can keep their battery going all day. The iPad family (and every other tablet out there atm) are all too much like islands; designed for one person to only rarely connect to others, and not designed for constant mesh communication. They're all for consumers, and consumer kit just is not good enough to use without a massive investment of effort. Fair enough if you're happy to do that, but for me, I'd have to neglect other parts of the network to look after the tablets, and I'm not willing to do that until the time investment in them becomes more efficient. 1
aerospacemango Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 Thank you, two lists that prove my point on app quality. I'm sure there are other examples out there. And this is the way to win any serious argument! You gave a few choices of app, this was rebutted with a list of app choices. You decide that your point of view is the only correct one, and thus all the apps shown must be of inferior quality to your precious Apple choices. And once again, we are back to square one! My app is better than your app! Way to go! iPad mini being a game changer, like the title suggests? Do me a favour! Drop the price by £100, and it might well have been, but I stand by my original comments. People will buy them as status symbols and only fanbois cannot see that!
SYNACK Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 W8 Acer 510p x86 tablets, 9h or 18h with the keyboard
Theblacksheep Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 (edited) Only on x86, not RT. Windows RT wasn't mentioned, Windows 8 was. Windows 8 has millions of 'apps' already available and working. Edited October 24, 2012 by Theblacksheep
X-13 Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 People will buy them as status symbols and only fanbois cannot see that! The only thing I like about the Apple/Windows/Android[*nix] hoo-hah is that, sometimes, it forces the others the make better stuff to combat the latest thing. Anything that results is better, cheaper tech is fine with me. [Not including human rights violations, war crimes and/or alien overlords.]
localzuk Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 Windows RT wasn't mentioned, Windows 8 was. Windows 8 has millions of 'apps'. And once again, context. We're talking about tablet devices. The only Windows 8 tablet available is the one running Windows 8 RT. Therefore, the most sensible context for the mention of 'Windows 8' to be would be in reference to Windows 8 RT... Windows has loads of applications sure, but hardly any are tablet friendly...
Theblacksheep Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 (edited) And once again, context. We're talking about tablet devices. The only Windows 8 tablet available is the one running Windows 8 RT. Therefore, the most sensible context for the mention of 'Windows 8' to be would be in reference to Windows 8 RT... No, none are available right now, the release date is Friday for RT and 8 devices. Loads are available on pre-order. Most models are x86. Microsoft are quite clear: Windows RT is arm, Windows 8 is x86. It's also called Windows RT, not Windows 8 RT. Its listed in the Windows Edition and GPOs as such. The most sensible context for Windows 8 is x86. Gone O/T now... Edited October 24, 2012 by Theblacksheep
LeMarchand Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 Me, I'm just wondering how I'm going to avoid hitting the ignorati who will look at any 7" tablet that isn't an iPad Mini and say in a condescending tone, "Oh - they're just copying Apple."
Arthur Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 The only Windows 8 tablet available is the one running Windows 8 RT. Therefore, the most sensible context for the mention of 'Windows 8' to be would be in reference to Windows 8 RT... There's Windows RT and Windows 8, but no Windows 8 RT. It doesn't exist!
tmcd35 Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 That's the thing - we should be looking at education outcomes and seeing if the stuff we're spending money on is actually worth it. I'd agree with that. The question then becomes how do you quantify the impact of IT on lessons, and that includes the teachers laptop and projector? It's unfair then to reduce IT to one subject, all subjects want to use IT, and we have to resource it. This is one of the questions that I know is going around our SLT at the moment. What measure do you use to say that half our of Internet access makes X amount of difference to a geography lesson compared to using an atlas? You know what can do all those things? A laptop. Or a desktop... You know the other thing? They've been able to do it for more than 10 years. I remember using Fruity Loops as a kid on a pentium 2. Yes, but have you tried carrying a PC between lessons. Even laptops are too big really on that scale. There might be some mileage in netbooks, but even so the touchscreen tablet form factor does bring something to the table. Here's the question we are grappling with - "We have 4 ICT suites. They are not always fully booked, but we do get complaints because there are a number of periods where they are fully booked and more teachers want to use them. Do we had a 5th ICT suite that is hardly booked but still get complaints from the 6th or 7th teacher during the wrong period? What about laptop trolleys for each department ?" - Most of the time the suites are booked for Internet research. Causing complaints when others want to do controlled assessments and no rooms are available. How do you solve that problem? Tablets are one answer, might not be the right one, but then again... And this is the way to win any serious argument! Lol, my bad - you're right You gave a few choices of app, this was rebutted with a list of app choices. You decide that your point of view is the only correct one, and thus all the apps shown must be of inferior quality to your precious Apple choices. My problem becomes I now need to show you the two apps side by side to see the difference. Of the office apps, I believe QuickOffice is the best listed. I've used this on my iPad. Now QuickOffice is to Pages as Wordpad is to MS Work. In fact QuickOffice has more in common with WordPad and Pages is somewhere between MS Word and publisher. Is the iPad Mini a game changer? no that was the original iPad. But it's a welcome addition at a reasonable price (should have been a bit cheaper). At the moment it's the best recommendation I have for my headteacher. I'd like to see some quality apps hit Android, if they did I'd probably switch myself, just doesn't seem to be happening for some reason. It's a bit like Linux vs. Windows. Everybody want's to love Linux but when you actually use it, well most of the time I'm reminded of Windows 98 and Office 97.
nathan Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 By that logic we should rip out all the computers and put the chalkboards back up. (That said, I'm very pleased I'm not the one being paid to make those kinds of decisions). Erm, I take it you've not used Garageband then? Can you recommend me a good Android alternative to AmpKit+? How about attaching a keyboard and using Pages? Hell, is there a good android alternative to Pages? EDIT: The only reason for me recommending iPad's is app availability. Android doesn't seem to have good alternatives to Garageband or Pages or Keynote, etc. And Windows 8, well it's doesn't have any apps (the store was quiet barren last time I looked). If the app availability on other platforms changes, then so will my opinion. (I do like ICS as an OS). You honestly can't see an alternative for pages or keynote on Windows 8??? (or even Windows RT??) Please, open the other eye! It's starting to sound like tailoring education to tech instead of tailoring tech to education.
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