mattx Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 (edited) BBC News - Gary McKinnon extradition: Theresa May to rule on hacker Just wondering what sort of message this sends out if he gets away with it. Commit computer crime but then say it was your medical condtions fault. Edited October 16, 2012 by mattx
Sheepy Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 But as the crime was committed on UK soil should he not go to court here rather than the US?
plexer Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 But as the crime was committed on UK soil should he not go to court here rather than the US? The crime was launched from the uk but attacked machines in the us so who should preside? Ben
LosOjos Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 (edited) I think he should be tried in the UK. I understand why the US want him, but they seem to think they police the world now, extraditing anybody who does anything they disagree with. It's very dangerous to allow a nation that kind of power... EDIT: this could get controversial, so I best put a note here: these are my opinions and I'm using emotive language to portray them. I am sure you can find examples of people doing things the US "doesn't like" and not getting extradited, but there are many cases to the contrary. Please understand what I say isn't meant to be taken literally. Edited October 16, 2012 by LosOjos
familiarrealms Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 If i were the UK gov, i would give him a job.
Flatpackhamster Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 BBC News - Gary McKinnon extradition: Theresa May to rule on hacker Just wondering what sort of message this sends out if he gets away with it. Commit computer crime but then say it was your medical condtions fault. For me the biggest issue is the asymmetric nature of the extradition agreement with the US. This is basically how it works. Extradition from UK to USA - They make a request, we send whoever they want. Extradition from USA to UK - We make a request, they tell us to take our request and shovel it. I have a problem with that.
localzuk Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 The crime was launched from the uk but attacked machines in the us so who should preside? Ben The UK. He broke the Computer Misuse Act. Domestic law trumps foreign law in my view. Anyway, the issue isn't just that he has an illness. That does need taking into account, but its also the way the US justice system works and how he will be treated, knowing that he is a vulnerable person with a high suicide risk. The UK govt has now created the 'Forum' bar, which is to determine where best for a Brit to be tried in these sort of cases, but it can't be used retroactively. This somewhat levels the playing field with extradition law.
Ketlane Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 This letter to The Guardian makes the balance fairly clear, I think: Letter: Facts about US-UK extradition requests | Law | The Guardian I quote here the statistics paragraph: The Home Office received 95 extradition requests from the US between 1 January 2004 and 31 July 2009; 47 of these have taken place, with 36 ongoing, five withdrawn by the US and seven refused by UK authorities. The UK has made 42 extradition requests to the US during the same period; 27 of these have taken place, with 12 ongoing, three withdrawn by the UK and none refused. The numbers of requests made between the UK and its extradition partners are often unequal – Spain extradited 104 people to us between 2004 and 2008 and received 27 – but this signifies no imbalance in the governing arrangements. More up-to-date stats on the US Embassy website FAQs on the US-UK Extradition Relationship | Embassy of the United States : Under this treaty, 130 extradition REQUESTS have been submitted from the U.S. to the UK. Of those 130 requests, the UK has refused 10. Of the remaining 120, 77 individuals have actually been extradited from the UK to the U.S.; and in the other 43 cases, either the case is still pending in the UK system or the individuals returned to the U.S. on their own, or some other circumstance intervened to make extradition from the UK to the U.S. no longer necessary/relevant. During the same time period, the UK has submitted 54 extradition REQUESTS to the U.S., of which none have been refused. Of those 54 requests, 38 have so far resulted in extradition of an individual from the U.S. to the UK. Of the remaining 16 cases, the individuals either returned to the UK on their own, or some other circumstance intervened to make extradition from the U.S. to the UK no longer necessary/relevant. (No extradition requests from the UK are waiting further processing in the U.S. system at this time.) We don’t track extraditions by the citizenship of the accused -- requests are sent based on where a person accused of a crime is believed to be, not based on their citizenship. We can’t say definitively how many of these requests or extraditions were of U.S. or UK citizens, but citizens of a wide range of countries are represented in these numbers.
Flatpackhamster Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 OK, so why is it that everyone has the impression that the extradition system is so loaded in favour of the US? Odd.
Michael Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 There was an interview with him years ago where he described what he was doing and why. I am not a computer hacker, however I did understand what he was talking about and I'm not really that convinced. Scapegoat does come to mind. No doubt he has excellent computing abilities but still, I just think the US Government were caught with their pants down and they're just angry at this fact. Insufficient security measures were in place.
X-13 Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 OK, so why is it that everyone has the impression that the extradition system is so loaded in favour of the US? Odd. Mainly because they try to apply their laws to places where things are legal. Like PirateBay. It's legal[ish] in Sweden, but they keep trying to arrest everyone based on THEIR laws.
tech_guy Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 I'm sorry but I'm going to upset everyone here by saying they should send him. He was stupid. Stupid and caught. UFOs, aspergers or not, he should man up and face the consequences instead of attempting to hide behind or blame these things. 2
Ketlane Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 OK, so why is it that everyone has the impression that the extradition system is so loaded in favour of the US? Odd. Too many people read the Daily Mail? Too few people go off to check facts?
difinity Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 He has been honest and manned up. IIRC he wrote a script to login using default common passwords. He didn't do much, if any damage and wasn't doing it for malicious reasons rather he was looking for proof for extraterrestrial life. If we knew for sure that he would get a fair and unbiased trial with a fair punishment then i don't think the resistance to extradition would be so strong. As we have seen from Guantanamo Bay and the Megaupload case, this is not the case.
X-13 Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 He didn't do much, if any damage $800,000 (£487,000) worth of damage... apparently. But, that sounds like piracy damages. $100million lost due to piracy?... seems legit. [Actual figure may vary]
pcstru Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 OK, so why is it that everyone has the impression that the extradition system is so loaded in favour of the US? Odd. The standard of evidence is subtly different (explained by the guardian article linked to earlier). I think that's at the root of such perceptions. Personally I think McKinnon should be tried in the UK. If computer misuse depends on the law in the country where the target system is located, then that sets a poor precedent. What legal sanction might then be faced by someone hacking (say) a ship or planes systems in mid Atlantic?
X-13 Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 What legal sanction might then be faced by someone hacking (say) a ship or planes systems in mid Atlantic? INTERNATIONAL WATERS! WOO!
chazzy2501 Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Do you remember the TV Links guy? He'd broken no laws in this country but the US wanted him for supposed copyright infringment. This would tie him up with huge costs and will ruin his life. To know its possible you could break the law in another country on your PC and then find yourself on a plane to that country to face charges is unacceptable in this Internet age. Extraditions should be reserved for only the most serious crimes. The US issue warnings to new prisoners about STDs as they are fully aware that prisoners are routinely raped and accept this as the norm. Gary McKinnon has broken the law and should pay but he should pay here not in the US where he can spend the next few years in solitary or being sexually abused. 1
X-13 Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Do you remember the TV Links guy? He'd broken no laws in this country but the US wanted him for supposed copyright infringment. I couldn't remember the details of that. I was going to mention it.
mattx Posted October 16, 2012 Author Posted October 16, 2012 I'm sorry but I'm going to upset everyone here by saying they should send him. He was stupid. Stupid and caught. UFOs, aspergers or not, he should man up and face the consequences instead of attempting to hide behind or blame these things. Agree 100%
mattx Posted October 16, 2012 Author Posted October 16, 2012 Well he has got away with it. I wonder if he will be well enough to vote Tory in the next election..... 1
elsiegee40 Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Home Secretary Theresa May says there is no doubt Mr McKinnon is seriously ill. She says she has carefully examined the medical evidence and taken legal advice and has concluded that his extradition would give such a high risk that he would end his life that it restricts his human rights They've decided the suicide risk is too high
Sdrawkcab Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 (edited) Well he has got away with it. I wonder if he will be well enough to vote Tory in the next election..... He's never actually denied the charges though, after he was caught he admitted what he'd done. The question is where he should be tried, not whether or not he should be. He's not actually gotten away with anything, so you should probably be careful when you make statements like that. Honestly Mattx, from lurking here for a while and seeing your posts in the past I expected better of you. Edited October 16, 2012 by Sdrawkcab
familiarrealms Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Newws just in: he is not being extradited to the US. Medical reports said that he would commit suicide if moved.
mattx Posted October 16, 2012 Author Posted October 16, 2012 He's never actually denied the charges though, after he was caught he admitted what he'd done. The question is where he should be tried, not whether or not he should be. He's not actually gotten away with anything, so you should probably be careful when you make statements like that. Honestly Mattx, from lurking here for a while and seeing your posts in the past I expected better of you. You shouldn't expect anything from me.... I just enjoy lighting the blue touch paper from time to time..... 1
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