Windows or Linux -- A Question

[linescanner]

Running complete Linux or complete windows systems is not the best way forward. Each OS has its ups and its downs.

 

It is a case of choosing what is best for the job. If you run Moodle, run it on *nix over windows, it is better at it.

 

If you want an easy to manage powerful authentication structure use AD

 

etc............

 

Choose the best tools for the job..

 

It was my company that implemented Orwell and the FUD spread regarding to the switch back to Windows is not true.

 

I am not prepared to air our dirty laundry in public, however if someone wants the truth please drop me a pm.

 

I have a school that runs 95% on Linux and they are happy. I have others that have chosen it to do certain jobs.

 

Linux on the desktop is and will be for the foreseeable future controversial. Using Linux for proxy/mail/web etc... is not. It just does a job.

 

Linux on the desktop is not the problem, the lack of quality apps is the main issue. Until the ISVs start writing apps for the Linux desktop it will always be an issue.

[Disease]

@linescanner Thanks for the update and good post, so you have not converted back to windows then as the article claims?

[Geoff]

I'm glad to see no one managed to pick holes in my masterplan.

[Disease]

hehe

[linuxgirlie]

We don't have 100% Linux, we can't, but even if we could I am not sure that we would and I would definitely not remove Windows for Linux, if we had already paid for the licenses.

 

On the other hand the school has decided that any new computers (we build ours by hand) we won't buy a Windows license for, so far we have 9 Linux servers, 1 Windows (SIMS but will soon be CMIS) and 2/3 Linux clients(fat) and looking at adding a few thin client suites soon for a 700 student school.

 

I must admit I do 'promote' Linux to schools, it's not like I can't with my own open source project aimed at them! But my personal view is that there is no real excuse to have Windows Servers in education, but client wise schools should use whatever they need, be that Windows, Mac, Linux, Unix anything!!

 

 

Jo

[openhgs]

openhgs the question was do you have a 100% Linux network, you don't as according to your Wiki on OpenHGS.org you had:

 

CMIS/Eportal Server

The admin people use Windows obviously as CMIS doesn't run on Linux; more's the pity. The schools' MIS system should be platform independent, Our admin machines are separate from the Curriculum machines.

 

Really the question is why would you put the IP addresses of your entire network on the open internet? I think you are playing a very deadly game of putting all that info on an open website, but maybe thats just me.

 

All of our documentation is stored offsite and is publically accessible - that is our policy. If our documentation is of use to anyone they are welcome to use it. There is no harm in publishing local i/p addresses; it's about as dangerous as you telling me the host name of your server. Didn't you realise 10.0.0.0/8 is reserved for private networks?

[openhgs]

Linux on the desktop is and will be for the foreseeable future controversial..

 

LOL! I've first started supporting SCO/Unix desktops in 1991. I installed my first Linux desktop machines in 1996, and this was for a large food manufacturer. I've been working in IT since 1980 and I've rarely used M$ on the desktop - I've been extremely priviledged .

[CyberNerd]

I'm glad to see no one managed to pick holes in my masterplan.

 

It's suprisingly similar to my masterplan !. I do have questions though - are you planning on giving Destop windows or Desktop Linux with published Citrix applications.

I've recently been looking at network booting Puppy Linux for PXE booting a 90Mb desktop - There is a thread on it in the puppy dev forum. we are currently PXE booting thinstation, but with only the ica client - no apps.

 

 

100% linux thing - If I started working at a school that was 100% linux or 100% apple, I'd be installing windows desktops as students should get the diversity. As for servers - linux wins hands down.

[Geoff]

are you planning on giving Destop windows or Desktop Linux with published Citrix applications.

 

Well, some of our old PCs refuse to boot Thinstation correctly, so I've been forced to hotwire a bare bones XP install to boot straight into a citrix session.

 

Some boot Thin Station fine though.

 

New rooms will be Thin clients of indeterminate OS. Unless there's an overwhelming need for support for a task citrix isn't suited for. eg, movie editing. However, in that paticular example, like you I'd be inclined to try Macs just for diversities sake.

[Joedetic]

I am still amazed at the fact that windows users are trying to slate an operating system that is absolutely fantastic. Windows is developed by a HUGE corporation that is paying people TONNES of money to develop it. *Nix is free and no one is being paid to develop many of the distros available, and yet, Linux or any of the BSDs are worthy competitors.

 

Maybe it's something to do with people being passionate about what they are developing instead of just being in it for the money.

 

I think that whilst there is a place for linux in education and I think that's a BIG place. There are just some things like directory services and centralised logons that are best left up to windows server due to the fact that it can be setup and running in a matter of minutes instead of hours sat installing packages and doing text based configs.

 

Anyway, lack of licensing costs must please the SLTs somewhere along the line!

[CyberNerd]

@Joedetic

 

I don't think it's fair to say that people aren't getting paid for developing linux distros - Most of the kernel development is paid for by the likes of Redhat, IBM, HP etc and there is a huge investment from firms like Novel, Sun because it makes them money - their not in it for the fun of it. Linux is a serious commercial contender, the fact that it competes well against microsoft is testomony to this. I do think the philosophy and the innovation that open source brings is being missed out in the educational sector and government sector in general.

[linuxgirlie]

@Joedetic, you haven't see Karoshi have you

 

We designed this distro so that you didn't have to sit around for hours playing with configs, a full network server suite can be up and working (with a user and a computer joined to it) in about 20 minutes (for us) and about 40-1hr for people who have never touched Linux before, if you choose single server setup it can be done in 30 minutes!

 

There are things out there designed just for schools.

 

Jo

[kxv2020]

To be honest I'm not a great fan of Linux generally as a OS - I have been forced to use it a Uni but sometimes it can be used well.

[i just find it difficult to do what I want to do but maybe thats down to a general lack of knowledge and software]

 

As for servers, I agree that we could have some for webbased apps, however I would need to start learning how to do it. Sometimes its a sense of familiarity with windows which just does it.

 

However I do agree with OpenSource Projects, ie. Joomla etc.

 

I think I've just got mixed bag of opinions which are all confused and too difficult to write here!

[Joedetic]

@ cybernerd.

 

I didn't say that there werent people being paid to dev linux. I said that MANY of the distros are developed by people that arent being paid as shown by the following quote.

 

"No one is being paid to develop many of the distros available"

 

@linuxgirlie

 

Yes, there are a lot of distros available that are easily configured...yet some of these lesser known distros arent to everyone's liking...something more mainstream is prefered by most people i know...for example ubuntu (which /is/ configured easily but i'd rather use debian or freeBSD)

[CyberNerd]

I see what you mean, but I think the 'die hard' hobbyist who sits in a darkened room knocking out shell script is certainly the minority. The majority of code is developed by people who have a need for it in their company (or even school). The fact that they can improve the work of others, then publicly release it for scrutiny -whilst making money - is the advantage, giving rapid progression and ingenuity over closed source vendors.

[linuxgirlie]

@joedetic

 

Yeah but the 'main stream distros' are not aimed at the UK education market, created by ICT Teachers, Network Managers and Technicians from UK schools with the features, server installations that we have done.

 

Download and let us know if we are missing something or have done something wrong and we will change it.

 

 

Jo

[GrumbleDook]

I don't know why everyone is ranting about this is better or that is better ...

 

Why not go for a reliable and well designed FreeBSD based system

 

Buy a Mac ;-)

 

On a serious note ... I am with linecutter here ... use what is appropriate.

 

We are a mixed platform environment. Macs and Windows (XP) on the desktop and laptop, servers run OSX, 2003, Solaris (thanks to the lovely blokes at The Cutter Project) and some linux based appliances (smoothwall and watchguard kit)

 

We will be running in Sun Rays over the hols hooking into MS terminal Services, but may do Linux based TS later in the year ... but only after we have gotten over a very large hurdle ... making sure the curriculum can handle it.

 

We can all rant and rave about system x has a lower TCO or is more stable, less open to viruses or easier to configure ... but think about what is easier to prepare resources for, think about the training required when changing systems, think about the impact it could have on results.

 

I am not saying don't do it ... but the idea of doing it in a school because of something as nice as ethics does not wash ... unless it is going to make a difference to the learning (and by that I mean make sure that it doesn't screw your results ... make sure it improves them) then we are on to a no-brainer.

 

Schools are for educating kids ... People like linuxgirlie have been very careful when planning how they deliver things ... it has taken Ian Lynch years to build up INGOTs to what they are today.

[unixman]

I've first started supporting SCO/Unix desktops in 1991. I installed my first Linux desktop machines in 1996, and this was for a large food manufacturer. I've been working in IT since 1980 and I've rarely used M$ on the desktop - I've been extremely priviledged .

 

You've been one of the privileged few for almost as long as me. I started SCO/Unix in 1989. I didn't touch Mickeysoft until Windows 2000 and I'm still amazed at how primitive it is. Where are the multiple desktops? the virtual consoles? the shell? commands to manipulate the process table? commands to rejig partitions on the fly? choice of file system? the ability to drop the gui? Oh hang on I forgot. Windows is only a single user operating system. It was never designed with server processing in mind.

 

As you correctly pointed out elsewhere, Windows just makes money for Bill Gates and the other shareholders.

 

How many well-known programmers work for Microsoft? The only one I know of is Alexey Pajitnov, which is a fine pointer to the kind of company they are. Well-known programmers who have contributed to Linux? Julianne Haugh and Andrew Morton to name but two, both having made important contributions to other systems.

[linuxgirlie]

@Grumbledook

 

Hear Hear, I couldn't agree more, that is exact my point of view and exact why it has taken 3 + years to get were we are today.

 

Jo

[Joedetic]

It's odd that you mention INGOTS cause some that i used to work with now works at IRL computers, the company that is run by Ian Lynch.

[GrumbleDook]

@Joedetic

 

It's a smaaaallll world.

[linescanner]

There are so many things to look at, saying one thing is better than another is highly subjective.

 

Take

 

Device A is better than device B but, device A cost 10 times what device B does.

You can have 10 of the lesser device, which is best. I know this is subjective but things like this need to be looked at.

 

Thin client is the best example of this. A good Fat client is always going to be more capable than a thin, however if you can deploy 3 rooms of thins for the cost of 1 room of fats, which is best ????????

 

The thins may only be capable of 75% of what the fat is but the fact that 3 times more people can be exposed to the technology at any one time is a powerful argument.

 

The main thing to look at is is it fit for purpose. If the answer is yes then use it, does not matter what OS or architecture it is.

 

Choose the right tool for the right job.

 

And most of all, look outside the box. There is a big world of toys out there

 

Andy

[mattx]

What I find shocking is no one has even mentioned OS/2, LAN & WARP server which I was bought up on..... ;-)

 

Seriously though, in my last job for a large company which used to be known as Safeway - I and a college had the nice job of turning all our OS/2 ver 3 & OS/2 ver 4 desktops into thin clients as the company went down the Citrix route. As the company already had the MS Win95 licences which came with the PCs, turning them into thin clients was not that expensive. I worked on a build for various desktops for 6 months. Took a while as the site was Token-Ring, and back then 95 and Token Ring were not the best of friends....Plus the DHCP was running on a mainframe with netbui being the main protocol at the time and as the network was bridged we hit all sorts of problems with that. That was until MS released a new ver of the winsock and the network went all IP.

Good thing about the 95 think client image which was there was a bit of a backup element. If a user could not connect to the citrix farm then installed on the 95 PC was a 3270 emulator + IE so some work could still be done.

 

As for where I am now, again like most we use a mixture and what we think is right for the job. MS at the desktop, MS for the servers, IT database on mySQL on an old IBM E-server running Ubuntu. Media playout using Freenas [ FreeBSD ], Navaho [ Linux ] for our mail system, firewall & proxy server. All work very well, all talk to each other and at the end of the day what we have found is working best........so far.....

[Scotmk]

Why do you hate Linux, Disease?

 

so when people quote linux does it better, sometimes this may be a inproper use/config of Microsoft software.

 

One could also turn round and say "when people quote linux is crap, sometimes this may be improper use/config of Linux software".

 

 

I agree, I have never used Linux really, but if I needed to I would make sure I researched correctly before hand.