i-Pad vs Laptop

[Gibson335]

Just wondering: if you were about to implement a wi-fi facility for your 6th Form, would you opt for i-Pads as the client device or laptops...and why?

[ihaveaproblem]

Depends what the required uses of the device would be.

Personal leased device ? School device ? Basic web browsing for research and document creation ? Video editing ? Graphics design ?

 

Really depends on the requirements. I'd wait and test windows 8 tablets first personally if you have that luxuary

[twin--turbo]

without any further qualification of the requirement , I would almost always opt for laptops and make sure they were locked down..

 

Rob

[Gibson335]

Hmm. Let's say the 'requirement' has yet to be established. Let's say SLT have had a lightbulb moment and believe providing a wi-fi facility (let's exclude BYOD at this point) is a good idea, but they just can't put their finger on why or what the expected outcome would be.

 

I suppose I'm looking for initial gut reactions to the question...

 

For what it's worth, my own initial reaction is to begin with a tried-and-trusted approach to devices - opt for laptops as we know the pros and cons. We know they'll do a good job - hard to think of something they won't do that our students are used to being able to do elsewhere in the school or, indeed, with the rest of the available 6th Form kit. However, I'm open to being persuaded otherwise if the argument in favour of i-Pads is a good one.

[CyberNerd]

windows 8 is quite a good reason why you should have tablets instead of laptops. Thats Microsofts betting.

[tmcd35]

IMHO laptops are nearly always a bad idea and usually serve to increase tech workload more than they improve teaching and learning. I've all but banned their use here. I tend to think, space allowing, an extra bookable ict suite is a better idea than a trolley of laptops, half of which won't work. Personal prejudice in a bought the t-shirt kind of way.

 

I'd be tempted to rethink my position with netbooks if the supporting wifi infrastructure is clearly thought about in advance.

 

As for iPads I can clearly see the benefits and can't see as many negatives when you look at one device per pupil and managed wifi is used. BYOD has problems in device parity, software support and technical support to be practice beyond basic web browsing, but a standard tablet ecosystem (iPads for all) I think could work wonders.

 

Windows 8 might be interesting from a touchscreen netbooks point of view, but the apps won't be there for some time yet for it to compete with iPad. Standard windows apps are impossible to use on a tablet (we tried) you really need a keyboard and mouse for them.

 

I think a low price 7" iPad will be the game change for edu, either that of a sub10" Win8 touchscreen netbooks. Either one, with a properly managed wifi infrastructure, has the potential to really transform teaching if deployed on a 1:1 ratio. From a tech support POV theres less to go wrong with an iPad compares to a netbook (think missing keys).

Edited August 3, 2012 by tmcd35

[SYNACK]

W8 x86 tablets with keyboards, best of both worlds and no stuipid nickel and dimeing for every little thing under the sun like you get with iPads. You can use some desktop apps on them but you do need to either have the keyboard attached or have the DPI at 125%. Being less rippoffish than the iPad they also come with USB ports so if you want you can just plug in a full sized keyboards and mice in. I've burnt DVDs off using an external drive with one, try doing that with an iPad.

[Meldrew]

IMHO laptops are nearly always a bad idea and usually serve to increase tech workload more than they improve teaching and learning.

 

I agree but more due to available bandwidth. I'd rather have 100Mb per machine than 150Mb (at best) shared between lots.

 

As for iPads I can clearly see the benefits and can't see as many negatives when you look at one device per pupil and managed wifi is used.

 

What are the benefits? All I see with iPads is problems. No central control, bad for content creation, bad for maintainability, bad for keeping in use over a number of years, and on top give you neck ache or arm ache! Given the choice I'd definitely go for laptops, even given the above.

[tmcd35]

What are the benefits? All I see with iPads is problems. No central control, bad for content creation, bad for maintainability, bad for keeping in use over a number of years, and on top give you neck ache or arm ache! Given the choice I'd definitely go for laptops, even given the above.

 

You sound like a (small) number of teachers around here

 

My stock answer is - take just 5 minutes to have a good look around the app store and then come back and tell me you couldn't find even 1 app that would be helpful and you wouldn't benefit from having that 1 app available at any time without the need to book an ICT suite or laptop trolley?

 

Now multiply that by 10 (the number of subject departments we have here) and already you have 10 unique apps. An example, for geography, might be something as simple as Google Earth. Not exactly ground breaking but can you imagine geography teachers having access to this 1 app whenever they needed it without the hassle of booking anything?

 

Now think of PDF copies of text books that need replacing every other year because the paper versions get so worn and dogged. Then there is the Internet and Wikipedia, etc, as just general information resources. Writing an essay on Henry VIII, can't remember the name of his 5 wife? Just grab your iPad and look it up.

 

Then of course there are uses such as homework diaries, etc.

 

And what about content creation? iMovie? Garageband? iWorks? Photoshop? Just add a bluetooth or USB keyboard and away you go.

 

Nobody should ever think that they will completely replace regular PC's. We will always need a number of desktops for more demanding content creation work, but do I really need 2-300 desktops for 800 pupils? Even our 4 main ICT suites (120 desktops) are probably too many. But 60 desktop for 800 pupils with their own tablet style device - sounds reasonable to me.

 

Having tested all three ecosystems I think iPads have the edge on app availability (quality/diversity not number). If Win8 can match the iPads app store with an affordable touchscreen netbook it'd be a very easy sell. Google only need to concentrate on attracting some more quality apps to compete.

[Meldrew]

My stock answer is - take just 5 minutes to have a good look around the app store and then come back and tell me you couldn't find even 1 app that would be helpful and you wouldn't benefit from having that 1 app available at any time without the need to book an ICT suite or laptop trolley?

 

Agreed, there are very useful apps, but they generally cover a minute area of the syllabus. If you're giving every student an iPad, then you need to buy (taking your number of students) 800 copies of that app, at say a couple of quid equals £1600 for a tiny part of one subject area. Multiply that up and it'll cost a fortune.

 

Then there's how you get the apps onto the 800 devices - with laptops, just use AD. iPads - try to get all 800 iPads recalled to the technicians office to get the apps installed at regular intervals when teachers decide they want another app installed, sounds like a nightmare to me.

 

I do think tablets have a place, but only at home, not in schools.

[glennda]

Then there's how you get the apps onto the 800 devices - with laptops, just use AD. iPads - try to get all 800 iPads recalled to the technicians office to get the apps installed at regular intervals when teachers decide they want another app installed, sounds like a nightmare to me.

 

There is central management applications out there. Things such as the Meraki Systems Manger. Although Apple still need to bring the Volume Licensing stuff to the Uk>

[tmcd35]

@Meldrew, this is very much what we are looking in to at the moment. The future is a long way off (if I can put it like that?). The ideal is to get to a 1:1 tablet ratio, but how we achieve this as to be thought through. In terms of app cost, you are quiet right but I'll counter it with two arguments - does every student need every app? Ans. probably not. Doe every app cost money? again no, in fact there are a large number of quality free apps that can make a real difference. The whole idea is that the apps do cover a minute area of the syllabus, it is wrong to think the students would be using these all the time in every lesson. More they would have access to these all the time in every lesson - a big difference.

 

As for manageability - there are tools (both free and other whys) that will allow you to fully control the devices over the network including settings, restrictions and software installations (Mobile device management - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

 

I think 1 device per pupil (laptop/tablet/desktop/whatever) is pretty much needed in this internet age to achieve proper student lead learning by self discovery (which is where I think education should be at). I think the tablet format is the only format that makes a 1:1 ratio practical. And, I think, for the time being (things are bound to change), Apple have the only ecosystem that is fully usable.

 

The big question is around app purchases. How do you purchase multiple copies? Do you have to purchase 1 copy for each student that may ever need to access it? Or do you just need to purchase 1 copy for each student that needs to access it at the same time? eg. Do I need to buy 800 copies of iMovie, or only 130 copies because only Yr8's will be using it, or only 60 copies because Yr8's will use it on rotation half 1 term, half the next? These licensing rules need to be sorted out by Apple, et al. And from what I can gather (looking at app purchase state side) Apple at least are looking to answer these questions.

[Achandler]

All those problems will be also depends on who owns the device, if a pupil owns the device then each pupil must buy as app (assuming this is how you do your 1:1 ratio) and there is nothing you can do. They would also all need apple accounts etc.

 

If the school owns every device, then the problems become how long will 800 ipads last, how many per year will be lost/ broken, because the pupils won't look after them as well because they aren't theirs to have. But the cost saving comes because you can limit the number of apps needed.

 

With that said, 800 iPads is a colossal amount of money, and I give them a life expectancy of 3 years, so if 3 years you need another colossal amount of money. If a computer per child was really the way to go, then every room would have enough PCs in so every pupil could use one in every lesson if they needed to but they don't.

 

On a side note, I am also slightly concerned about whether writing on iPads for example is really a good idea (as in medically). Tablets have a place in schools, well most likely in most schools. Does every pupil need an iPad to learn or is there a benefit to every pupil having one? I don't think so, they become a distraction and a very expensive one.

[SYNACK]

@tmcd35 - eep, lets have 1000 ipads with 100s of different apps on there according for student. It does not need to be an iPad, there are many platforms, some of which don't even trap you completely to the will of Apple. Thanks to Apple we naw have App stores that take 30% off the top for doing effectivly nothing (not stopping malware or anything) just censoring competing providers. This successful model has now spread and everything is more expencive. How about books, oh thats right they have agreements that force books to be more expencive on other platforms. I don't want to sign up to an ecosystem where their biggest and most consistent contribution to the industry has been rising prices across every platform and trapping content creators in extremely restrictive deals. To my mind it is the educational equivilent of conflict diamonds.

[tmcd35]

@SYNACK - lol! I never said it has to be iPad - I said that, IMHO, only Apple have pulled the pieces together to make the dream work at the moment. If Google, Amazon and/or Microsoft could attract the same level of quality content then I'm sure it'd be preferable than handing Apple an monopoly.

 

I think in a school you need to settle on 1 platform, then managing the software of the network shouldn't be all that difficult, should it?

[CyberNerd]

I think in a school you need to settle on 1 platform, then managing the software of the network shouldn't be all that difficult, should it?

 

Just make that platform HTML and ica for remote apps and it will be a breeze.

[rdk]

All the problems with central control and locking down devices can be solved by....not having central control and not locking down devices. Our 7s & 8s have 1:1 MacBooks, effectively leased by parents but owned by the school until the lease is paid out. We image (rather our vendor does) and distribute the machines together with a portable HDD for backup. At school kids have no access to the network or network drives other than the internet. Network printing available by Papercut web print client. Their responsibility to backup and manage their machines.

 

Any problems caused by fiddling with settings or by downloading software that can't be fixed by tech dept in 2 minutes means that we go to the time machine backup. If that doesn't exist we re-image the machines. That's it. Best decision we ever made not to allow access to shared drives or home drives on the network, and not to try to manage the machines.

[Steve21]

Our 7s & 8s have 1:1 MacBooks

 

That's the exact issue there It's "their" machines. Not school ones lent/loaned etc etc.

 

When you give someone a machine of their own, they naturally take better care of it, and even if they don't it doesn't affect anyone else anyway though.

 

Steve

[CyberNerd]

 

Any problems caused by fiddling with settings or by downloading software that can't be fixed by tech dept in 2 minutes means that we go to the time machine backup. If that doesn't exist we re-image the machines. That's it. Best decision we ever made not to allow access to shared drives or home drives on the network, and not to try to manage the machines.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with this; problem is that many techs can't get away from having their own little AD empire and controlling everything - which usually is a job or two in itself, costing more time than it saves.

[localzuk]

That's the exact issue there It's "their" machines. Not school ones lent/loaned etc etc.

 

When you give someone a machine of their own, they naturally take better care of it, and even if they don't it doesn't affect anyone else anyway though.

 

Steve

 

And... load them up with porn? Or games? I don't know what kinda kids you all look after, but child ownership of devices with no management from us would be basically bedlam here.

[tmcd35]

And... load them up with porn? Or games? I don't know what kinda kids you all look after, but child ownership of devices with no management from us would be basically bedlam here.

 

There is a school of thought that says - it doesn't really matter what the pupil puts on the devices, it how they use them in class that matters. At the end of the day it's a classroom management issue and that's the teachers responsibility. Doesn't matter how many barriers we do or do not put in the way it is up to the teacher to make sure the pupil remains on task and is not accessing porn or playing games.

 

I disagree, slightly, I think we have a duty of care to put certain barriers in place and professional curtsey to ensure software on the devices are uniform to aid lesson planning.

[Steve21]

And... load them up with porn? Or games? I don't know what kinda kids you all look after, but child ownership of devices with no management from us would be basically bedlam here.

 

That's my point He's saying the answer is don't lock them down it's not needed, but that's generally due to them owning it (renting/leasing etc etc) it.

 

Generally you'll find all 1:1 devices are less locked though due to that part ownership, whether it's teacher laptops that need access to home stuff, or students.

 

Don't think it's the right way to do it though, still should be locked down.

 

Steve

[localzuk]

There is a school of thought that says - it doesn't really matter what the pupil puts on the devices, it how they use them in class that matters. At the end of the day it's a classroom management issue and that's the teachers responsibility. Doesn't matter how many barriers we do or do not put in the way it is up to the teacher to make sure the pupil remains on task and is not accessing porn or playing games.

 

I disagree, slightly, I think we have a duty of care to put certain barriers in place and professional curtsey to ensure software on the devices are uniform to aid lesson planning.

 

I would say that with the legal framework that we have to work within at the moment in the UK, that first school of thought is wrong, plain and simple.

 

If a teacher brings porn in on their laptop, it is a serious issue and would most likely result in sacking. If a child does it, the issues regarding the porn still exist. It doesn't matter that they aren't sat in a classroom watching it, its when they're on the playing fields, transferring it to their mates, or whatever other time.

[tmcd35]

I would say that with the legal framework that we have to work within at the moment in the UK, that first school of thought is wrong, plain and simple.

 

If a teacher brings porn in on their laptop, it is a serious issue and would most likely result in sacking. If a child does it, the issues regarding the porn still exist. It doesn't matter that they aren't sat in a classroom watching it, its when they're on the playing fields, transferring it to their mates, or whatever other time.

 

Again, personally I'd agree. However the issue here isn't how locked down the issue is one of policing and sanctions. We can put as many barriers as we like in place but the kids still find ways. It's not unknown for kids to bring albums of MP3's in on USB and dumping them in their network area, It's what we do when we find out about it that's the important part regardless of the barriers we may have in place. If it's their laptop it may need to be more open so they probably will put stuff on you won't be happy with, now how do you deal with it? Locking them down more may not be the answer.

[rdk]

Re porn & games on 1:1 devices. Yes, the kids load them up with games, but if they are playing games in class it's the teacher's class management issue not a technology issue. And porn - they can't access porn through the school internet connection (our best efforts) which means it comes from home, which means its a parental issue if it's accessed online. Also, if a parent requests that the machine be password protected or they be made administrator we will do that.

 

If we were to find porn, or pirated films etc, or if porn was being distributed around, it would be against the AUP and school rules in general and the kid would face sanctions. What's so special about computers that the school has to actively prevent them from holding porn or games? The kids have school bags supplied from our uniform shop and we don't actively prevent them from holding printed porn or games, yet all schools would have sanctions if it was found at school or passed around.

 

And that's for kids - I find it difficult to credit how any reasonable person would expect to provide teachers with any machine of which they were not the administrator, and I wouldn't expect any teacher to accept that they are not even trusted to have anything but a locked down machine. If you can't trust a teacher to be their own admin we may as well fire them all and shut up shop.