i-Pad vs Laptop

[Steve21]

I have never read anything that would lead me to believe it is illegal to show youtube videos in a classroom - in fact I am pretty confident it is explicitly legal.

 

There is also a lot a grey between "illegal" and against youtube's "terms of service" (ie fair/personal use exemptions) but we too tell all staff it is against copyright laws to download videos. Many teachers using youtube have the videos embedded in subject or topic specific websites they or the faculties have created.

 

if you have blocked youtube because teachers "might" download a video, yet it is legal in the UK to use it in class, then I would (politely) classify that as the IT dept making rules for their benefit that are detrimental to teaching and learning.

 

What grey area? It's their terms of use, and they own the copyright. If you break it it's illegal?

 

You shall not download any Content unless you see a “download” or similar link displayed by YouTube on the Service for that Content. You shall not copy, reproduce, distribute, transmit, broadcast, display, sell, license, or otherwise exploit any Content for any other purposes without the prior written consent of YouTube or the respective licensors of the Content

 

If you don't agree to the conditions, you don't use it.

 

Steve

[rdk]

What grey area? It's their terms of use, and they own the copyright. If you break it it's illegal?

If you don't agree to the conditions, you don't use it.

Have you really never heard of the Fair Use exemption to copyright? But that's beside the point. We can agree you shouldn't download youtube videos and I said we don't.

 

But you've blocked it when it's legal to use in class.

[Steve21]

But you've blocked it when it's legal to use in class.

 

And once again you ignore every policy and rules set in place? Congrats... Fair use doesn't just mean you can view anything whenever you want as it clearly states if you read it not just link wikipedia.

 

The same reason you have to buy licenses to record/view TV etc "EVEN" within schools. The ERA Licensing Scheme etc etc

 

You can't just go "fair use" and broadcast whatever you want.

 

You require an ERA Licence if you wish to use recordings of broadcasts as teaching resources. Open University programmes are covered by a separate licensing scheme. Certain rights may not be covered by ERA Members; recordings may be made of this material outside the ERA scheme under a separate licence.

 

As an example for TV programmes. ^

 

But as you've shown multiple times your way is right, and everyone else is wrong and just stupid so pretty pointless carrying on... *shrugs*

 

Steve

Edited August 11, 2012 by Steve21

[rdk]

I don't think you read what I wrote - I said I agree youtube videos shouldn't be downloaded.

 

However, I believe it is legal to show youtube videos in class. If it is not, please point out where I can see that law or condition or ToS or whatever.

[rdk]

As you edited your post I'll rephrase so you can comprehend.

 

OK - don't copy/broadcast etc videos.

 

However, it is not illegal, I believe, to show youtube videos in class via youtube or the embedded player, on a live internet link. if you think it is, show me where it says.

 

On the other hand, if you have blocked youtube on the grounds that a teacher "might" download a video and hence break copyright just admit that.

[rdk]

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

 

And yes, the website supplied the embed code so I believe it's OK to post the image.

[Steve21]

As you edited your post I'll rephrase so you can comprehend.

 

Last edited by Steve21; Today at 05:20 PM.

Your post: Today, 05:23 PM

 

If it's really come down to just implying false play now, I think it's end of convo. I don't need to edit old posts to try to change what you said. You replied to my post as it was, so please don't try to be backhanded.

 

If you want to run your school by letting them do what they want, in reference to accessing whatever they want, installing any unmanaged/illegal software etc be my guest. It's not me who is likely to end up on the wrong side of an enquiry when something goes wrong and all your private data is leaked etc etc.

 

And apologies to everyone else, this has gone way off track, but just trying to get the point across which still seems to have failed

 

Steve

[Roberto]

And that's for kids - I find it difficult to credit how any reasonable person would expect to provide teachers with any machine of which they were not the administrator, and I wouldn't expect any teacher to accept that they are not even trusted to have anything but a locked down machine. If you can't trust a teacher to be their own admin we may as well fire them all and shut up shop.

 

Why? Not giving admin rights to "non-IT" members of staff is an accepted good practice in business that (in decent sized, sensible businesses that are comparable in size to the average school) is usually followed very closely, unless there is a strong business case for doing anything else.

 

It's got very little to do with not trusting people and quite a lot to do with keeping support costs down, approving availability of IT facilities and acknowledging that regardless of "trust", everyone can make a mistake or get caught out by something, so its always good practice to minimise the possible consequences of such a mistake.

[alttab]

Where is your non locked down utopia now?? as you said its best effort so the parents could just put the onus back on your systems. Why do teachers need to install software anyway, you end up with a pack of stuffed machines full of every little bit of cack that promises to make their jobs easier by one or two spelling checks.

 

What makes teachers so different to every other employee in the world. Most places that deal with a large amount of machines and have a need to get work done lock down the machines a little just to make sure that they can do all the menial unimportant stuff - like their jobs as opposed to installing the latest Apple coffee recomendation app. What makes teachers so much better and more responcible than all the other employees in the world. Here's a news flash for you, they are not. They are generally worse, with unions so powerful they would have to murder someone on CCTV to be fired they know they can get away with almost everything and they attempt to.

 

it could be that most employees in the world, particularly in the windows world, have stuff locked down, aren't allowed to install software, draconian encryption policies, but in certain environments i've managed in the past where staff do creative work using apple machines, they dont work like the majority who've been provided with kiosk pc's, frustratingly poor performing thin clients and blackberry, in those rare situation it seems somewhat self-defeating to stop them from installing a bit of software that they've discovered or had recommended to them. There should be testing and approval processes in place, but most of the time the end user is the one who needs to be doing the extended testing anyway, because they're the one's who know how they intend to use the software. As IT support, i don't have the time or inclination to run through a gamut of procedures for testing software in a highly artificial way.

 

You wouldn't want to stop from them using dropbox etc if it fits in with how they work in a non-blackbox, asset tagged locked down world. Where, let's face it, staff don't venture far from writing emails, reading emails, sending emails. That sort of IT support heavy environment is never the most agile, what with countless departments still holding on to XP, to enterprise apps that won't work well with stuff later than IE7. !!

 

Then again, the creative users tend to have become more confident in using ICT, although they aren't necessarily power users. At the end of the day my approach with them has been not dissimilar to my approach with an admin member of staff using a heavily locked down machine with network drives. If there's a major problem with the machine and the most effective remedy from a time and effectiveness PoV is to reimage, there had better be a backup, the good thing with folk who use machines creatively effectively as standalone devices is they accept the need for THEMSELVES to take responsibility for backing up their data. Just as the one good thing to come out of 1:1 iPad schemes is shoving the idea of cloud or iTunes library based backup and syncing to the forefront as a USERS responsibility, not the responsibility of IT.

And therefore if they want that data restored once the machine is reimaged, they don't turn it back onto IT support that data can't be recovered. IT's their own fault that they didn't learn and effectively utilise time machine or iCloud.

 

I think you have to treat education somewhat differently, particularly because it's quite common for education to rollout new stuff long before enterprises pull their finger out, new OS, new devices, whole school 802.11n wireless.

 

That agility alone is a good reason not to paint it with the corporate IT brush, where you may be scheduled to come off office 2003 sometime next year, if your lucky.

[Roberto]

in those rare situation it seems somewhat self-defeating to stop them from installing a bit of software that they've discovered or had recommended to them. There should be testing and approval processes in place, but most of the time the end user is the one who needs to be doing the extended testing anyway, because they're the one's who know how they intend to use the software. As IT support, i don't have the time or inclination to run through a gamut of procedures for testing software in a highly artificial way.

 

That's a decision for the business to take, not the individual (regardless of whether its the individual in IT support saying "Computer Sez No" because they don't fancy the extra work or the user saying "but I want it *pout*") because having to wait for IT chafes on them. The organisation has to balance risks and requirements to reach a solution it is comfortable with.

 

You wouldn't want to stop from them using dropbox etc if it fits in with how they work in a non-blackbox, asset tagged locked down world.

 

Well actually the business might very well want to stop them using dropbox if it had concerns over user data leakage, data protection, or even just contractual requirements for how customer data is stored or processed, etc.

 

Again, this is a business decision, not one for the individuals. I find individual users tend not to think of things in terms of problems they introduce, just the problems they solve, which is understandable but it underlines why the business must take some measure of control, even if it chooses to give most of that control back to the end users again, in order to ensure that the right balance is struck between its various requirements and obligations.

 

Then again, the creative users tend to have become more confident in using ICT, although they aren't necessarily power users. At the end of the day my approach with them has been not dissimilar to my approach with an admin member of staff using a heavily locked down machine with network drives. If there's a major problem with the machine and the most effective remedy from a time and effectiveness PoV is to reimage, there had better be a backup, the good thing with folk who use machines creatively effectively as standalone devices is they accept the need for THEMSELVES to take responsibility for backing up their data.

 

Well here's the rub. Many people want all of the privileges of a "user controlled device" with none of the responsibilities.

So what about "user education and training" to get them out of that rut, I hear you cry? And I'd reply "look at all the "user education and training" that's gone into trying to teach people not to fall for phishing emails and malware webpages and then look at how many people who STILL blindly click anything if they think it's going to get them some pictures of miley cyrus in the bathtub or a real live nigerian prince with money to burn.

 

I think you have to treat education somewhat differently, particularly because it's quite common for education to rollout new stuff long before enterprises pull their finger out, new OS, new devices, whole school 802.11n wireless.

 

That agility alone is a good reason not to paint it with the corporate IT brush, where you may be scheduled to come off office 2003 sometime next year, if your lucky.

 

Well yes, but this is why educational IT is a specialist field of IT that requires domain knowledge to excel at. The same as supporting any other kind of business, to be honest.

 

You seem to have a very jaded view of business IT by the way (which is fair enough), and seem quite happy to compare the worst of business IT to the best of "supporting creative users" as if there's no place on the dial between those two extremes, which seems a little unfair.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Roberto

[alttab]

That's a decision for the business to take, not the individual (regardless of whether its the individual in IT support saying "Computer Sez No" because they don't fancy the extra work or the user saying "but I want it *pout*") because having to wait for IT chafes on them. The organisation has to balance risks and requirements to reach a solution it is comfortable with.

 

You seem to have a very jaded view of business IT by the way (which is fair enough), and seem quite happy to compare the worst of business IT to the best of "supporting creative users" as if there's no place on the dial between those two extremes, which seems a little unfair.

 

There can't be many schools where you can implement something in-between, but where those schools do exist the IT support department could just as easily be the hindrance if they don't understand the maturity of the user base and staff, and tailor the solutions accordingly. Here, it helps to understand what belt and braces security measures are and aren't.

[Roberto]

There can't be many schools where you can implement something in-between, but where those schools do exist the IT support department could just as easily be the hindrance if they don't understand the maturity of the user base and staff, and tailor the solutions accordingly. Here, it helps to understand what belt and braces security measures are and aren't.

 

But my point is that it's not up to the IT department to lock things down past the point that people can't do any work, just as its not up to individual staff in other departments to behave irresponsibly with for example, personal information about students, in the interests of expediency. It's up to the organisation as a whole to decide what its requirements are, to react to the world changing around them so those requirements don't end up causing them to fall behind, and to demand that all staff take these requirements seriously.

[localzuk]

But my point is that it's not up to the IT department to lock things down past the point that people can't do any work, just as its not up to individual staff in other departments to behave irresponsibly with for example, personal information about students, in the interests of expediency. It's up to the organisation as a whole to decide what its requirements are, to react to the world changing around them so those requirements don't end up causing them to fall behind, and to demand that all staff take these requirements seriously.

 

Alight flaw in that thinking - you keep referring to the organisation. Who makes the decisions? In most organisations, those decisions are made by, you guessed it, the network manager! That's what he's employed for...

 

Otherwise, it means having more meetings and a lot of staff are loathed to sign themselves up to more of them. The head certainly wouldn't be interested in such a discussion, that's why he hires IT professionals to do the job.

[Roberto]

Alight flaw in that thinking - you keep referring to the organisation. Who makes the decisions? In most organisations, those decisions are made by, you guessed it, the network manager! That's what he's employed for...

 

Otherwise, it means having more meetings and a lot of staff are loathed to sign themselves up to more of them. The head certainly wouldn't be interested in such a discussion, that's why he hires IT professionals to do the job.

 

And the network manager is answerable to other people, our decisions are made in response to business requirements - IT departments and their managers are not an island unto themselves. At least not in a functional establishment that's being run to a reasonable standard...

[Steve21]

And the network manager is answerable to other people, our decisions are made in response to business requirements

 

But isn't that the exact point, At the end of the line it is the IT team who need to decide if software/etc is secure, workable and usable within the environment? That's the job afterall There has to be a line where something is too insecure/old/unworkable that a firm no is given, it's not being installed sitewide.

 

Alternatives can be researched, and discussed obviously, but I don't agree there is ever this "perfect" harmony when every item requested can be given, and still kept to all the laws/security policies etc to ensure safe day to day running for students.

 

It's the fine balance of protecting everyone (including students, parents, teachers, data etc etc), and ensuring everyone has access to the software they want. There are always things that either "upset" someone, or break policies etc.

 

(And to me at least, this "functional" arguement seems to base around what happens when that occurs, Does the NM just go ok go ahead to keep teachers happy, or do they protect everyone and upset that teacher? Not saying one way is right, one is wrong, but to me the needs of many go over the needs of one.)

 

Steve

Edited August 12, 2012 by Steve21

[Roberto]

But isn't that the exact point, At the end of the line it is the IT team who need to decide if software/etc is secure, workable and usable within the environment? That's the job afterall There has to be a line where something is too insecure/old/unworkable that a firm no is given, it's not being installed sitewide.

 

Alternatives can be researched, and discussed obviously, but I don't agree there is ever this "perfect" harmony when every item requested can be given, and still kept to all the laws/security policies etc to ensure safe day to day running for students.

 

It's the fine balance of protecting everyone (including students, parents, teachers, data etc etc), and ensuring everyone has access to the software they want. There are always things that either "upset" someone, or break policies etc.

 

(And to me at least, this "functional" arguement seems to base around what happens when that occurs, Does the NM just go ok go ahead to keep teachers happy, or do they protect everyone and upset that teacher? Not saying one way is right, one is wrong, but to me the needs of many go over the needs of one.)

 

Steve

 

Well this is pretty much what I'm saying. It's up to the people running the organisation whether or not you need wireless (or at a higher level, they might simply say they wish to use 'portable device x') in each classroom, say, if teachers can show a requirement.

 

Even in places where this decision is left to the NM, someone higher up has made the choice to allow them that latitude and give them the funding to support it. It's then up to the IT managers how to achieve that objective.

Edited August 12, 2012 by Roberto

[alttab]

There has to be a line where something is too insecure/old/unworkable that a firm no is given, it's not being installed sitewide.

 

Alternatives can be researched, and discussed obviously, but I don't agree there is ever this "perfect" harmony when every item requested can be given, and still kept to all the laws/security policies etc to ensure safe day to day running for students.

 

 

Most of the time it's a case of teacher A wants to use this, if that is agreeable to the NM from a deployment, compatibility PoV then fine, or if the NM isn't fussed then again that's fine. But it doesn't seem to start from the point of view of 'what problem are we trying to solve' from both sides of the fence it comes down to personal preference over what bit of hardware and software is to be used, and what people are in their comfort zone with rather than identifying the need and then sourcing the solution.

 

It's so frustrating to get people who've worked a certain way and are determined to lift and shift that approach to their new place of work where they're given the autonomy to make those decisions. Harmony to me is achievable if folk are open to opening their ears and open to new ideas from others. I guess there is often a determination to do things in a certain way, where sometimes that determination isn't necessary or suitable given the environment. I've worked in environments where the majority of students immediate impulse isn't to download multi-GB unsuitable files to their home area, so in those environments why have hard quotas of piddly amounts of user storage ? There are countless other examples of square holes and round pegs that end up frustrating the user base, and have got very little to do with overall whole-organisation policy. Unless it is an organisation wide policy to make users less productive, which would be a first to be fair. And is totally unnecessary in a medium sized school.

[Roberto]

I guess there is often a determination to do things in a certain way, where sometimes that determination isn't necessary or suitable given the environment. I've worked in environments where the majority of students immediate impulse isn't to download multi-GB unsuitable files to their home area, so in those environments why have hard quotas of piddly amounts of user storage ?

 

Funding usually. We allocate far less storage to both students and staff than I would ideally like, but we allocate all that we reasonably can, rather than keeping gobs of unused disk space spare, as it were.

Edited August 12, 2012 by Roberto

[SYNACK]

@rdk - Oh, good, I was being used as the example of the evil lockdown wizard. I do find that funny as I generally run some of the least locked down school networks - that still work reliably - that I know of. My view point is heavily jaded by the few, generally most vocal and most self proclaimed 'technically skilled' users that break stuff so badly and with so little respect.

 

Here's the thing, teachers are not gods, they aren't! Now with that in mind lets put foward that the same loarding over, can't possibly understand mindset is exactly what you are wineing about and exactly what you are displaying. The end best end result is the best education for the students, this is not always helped by every teacher wandering off in their own direction doing their own thing as there are different qualities of teacher as in any job. Some of the are bad, don't deny it, they are. These are helpfully kept in their jobs by their unions preventing decent assessment of them. These are usually the ones claiming their superiority to everyone including any lowly pond scum that dares to inhabit a school without being a teacher and by extention load of the universe along with infallable. Guess what, everyone has jobs to do and some people are better at certain things hence why they get jobs in those areas. As a teacher you are generally presentation rather than implementation and may not take into account considerations that others might, such as your standard cavilere disregard for copywrite - another trait seemingly common with teachers. Your 'Apple is the answer' to every question viewpoint also probably ruffles a few feathers - mine included as many of the 'features' could also be seen as excuses for not having better solutions to start with.

[CyberNerd]

@rdk - Oh, good, I was being used as the example of the evil lockdown wizard. I do find that funny as I generally run some of the least locked down school networks - that still work reliably - that I know of.

 

I'd be really grateful if you you document this to the forum.

My strategy has always been to 'lock down' the network and the servers, rather than the clients.

could you provide an html output of your windows client lockdowns? it would help others in this situation enormously.

[SimpleSi]

How did I miss this fight

Do you report them for copyright infringement? No? In which case, your policy doesn't comply with the law in my view... It means that you aren't preventing your staff from breaking copyright on your school systems, which is as bad as facilitating it really.

 

Its basically a cop-out answer - 'we tell them off if they do bad things', but are you looking for them doing bad things? Trying to prevent them from doing them?

ITS NOT OUR/YOUR FFN JOB TO ACT AS JUDGE DREDD

 

The cook doesn't monitor knife usage - she(sorry to be sexist) doesnt make sure they are not sharp - she hands them out for eating - we tell the pupils(and the teachers) not to stab each other with them and most days things go OK

 

When someone does stab with them - the wrath of god comes down upon them - this acts as a good example to the other pupils (and teachers) and a long gap occurs before it happens again.

 

Everyone knows not to mis-use the tools that they have been given

 

Maybe one day, somewhere, in some school, they might need knife monitors but in lots of schools in lots of places - the cook can get on with cooking and not worry about knive misuse

 

Attack ALWAYS Wins and spending tremedous time/effort on defence is normally only a reasonable value for money idea in a prison establishment

 

But hey - these discusssions always become religious and we should all live and let live - even if some of us are plonkers and are first in line come the revolution

Simon

 

PS For those new to Edugeek - I am a Dark Lord on the security front - I'm not on that team

Edited August 13, 2012 by SimpleSi

[localzuk]

How did I miss this fight

 

ITS NOT OUR/YOUR FFN JOB TO ACT AS JUDGE DREDD

 

I don't think I've seen a post that I disagree with more than this one. Last time I checked, my job description said that it was my job to ensure the integrity and security of my network, including ensuring software is licensed and legal. So, that task has been delegated to me to be 'Judge Dredd' as you put it. This isn't about home PCs where its up to the home user to do what they want and the consequences are their's and their's alone. It is about institutions with responsibilities to comply with the law, and that means delegation to people to do so - in this case to the network manager. So, even if you don't end up prosecuted for your staff member's behaviour and your lack of oversight of the network, you'd end up sacked instead while the head gets prosecuted. Me? I don't think that's a good way to behave. So, I try to prevent staff from breaking the law and therefore preventing them from damaging the security, integrity and legality of my school's systems.

 

How many people here have such a line as the one I mention above in their job description?

[Roberto]

How did I miss this fight

 

ITS NOT OUR/YOUR FFN JOB TO ACT AS JUDGE DREDD

 

I've checked my job description and it turns out that you're wrong about the "your" part of the statement.

[GrumbleDook]

How did I miss this fight

 

ITS NOT OUR/YOUR FFN JOB TO ACT AS JUDGE DREDD

 

The cook doesn't monitor knife usage - she(sorry to be sexist) doesnt make sure they are not sharp - she hands them out for eating - we tell the pupils(and the teachers) not to stab each other with them and most days things go OK

 

When someone does stab with them - the wrath of god comes down upon them - this acts as a good example to the other pupils (and teachers) and a long gap occurs before it happens again.

 

Everyone knows not to mis-use the tools that they have been given

 

Maybe one day, somewhere, in some school, they might need knife monitors but in lots of schools in lots of places - the cook can get on with cooking and not worry about knive misuse

 

Attack ALWAYS Wins and spending tremedous time/effort on defence is normally only a reasonable value for money idea in a prison establishment

 

But hey - these discusssions always become religious and we should all live and let live - even if some of us are plonkers and are first in line come the revolution

Simon

 

PS For those new to Edugeek - I am a Dark Lord on the security front - I'm not on that team

 

Sort of yes and no ... there will be a number of people on EG who *do* have it in their job description to be the people who make decisions about copyright, security, compliance, etc and others who don't. It is also hard to try to use analogies equating different laws and how they are applied in schools.

 

(general response to the thread now) Forgetting the knives for the minute ... if we just take assault as a criminal offence. A fight breaks out and black eyes are exchanged, skins is broken, bleeding occurs ... even if it is just grazed knees, elbows and face as they roll round on the floor. This is now ABH. The children (depending on age) can be arrested and dealt with under the law. However, most schools and parents involved will happily deal with it within the school rules and not involve the police. The same goes for vandalism (criminal damage) and theft.

 

So it is hard to turn round and for any of us to say the the law has to be consistently applied when we routinely ignore it for the convenience and benefit of the school, the parents and the children.

 

When it comes to knives then yes, we do have to assess the risk of certain children having knives ... that could be the job of the class teacher, a member of SLT or the DT Tech / HLTA / LSA involved ... but based on an agreed process of assessment ... like any other form of risk assessment you see in schools (school trips, PE, etc).

 

It is rare that it is solely a technical responsibility to comply with the law ... if you take the DPA it talks about

Appropriate technical and organisational measures shall be taken against unauthorised or unlawful processing of personal data and against accidental loss or destruction of, or damage to, personal data.

... so while we deal with the techie side there is another portion to be dealt with which can allow for compromise ... you relax the security, improve audit, improve training and set out clear boundaries. If the trust is abused then you come down hard on the individual and adapt what you do to deal with it.

 

There is no black and white here ... risk assessment is grey ... and far more than 50 shades at that!

 

The fact that someone here has talked about a system that they have which works well, that isolates section of their network and controls who access what and where from, that fits into their school situation ... that doesn't make it perfect for everyone, but is still worth looking at. I've seen similar before with 1:1 schemes and even talked about similar possibilities in the days of the Data Protection work with Becta. A number of WiFi vendors who talk about segregation of networks to allow BYOD talk about it too ...

[SimpleSi]

it turns out that you're wrong about the "your" part of the statement.

Apologies

Can you provide a copy of the Judge Dredd section

 

Simon