BSF - The Quetions

[russdev]

We are currently arranging series of podcasts with bsf companies that have won bids. We plan to talk about how they implement bsf contracts etc.

 

So what questions do you want asking? It is your chance to ask bsf winners those questions..

 

Russell

[Grommit]

We are currently arranging series of podcasts with bsf companies that have won bids. We plan to talk about how they implement bsf contracts etc.

 

So what questions do you want asking? It is your chance to ask bsf winners those questions..

 

Russell

 

Sorry isn't that "company" not "companies" as RM have won 90% of the bids..

 

Question 1/ Can I still be the Network Manager and keep my Position and Pay Scale?

[CyberNerd]

How long after the TUPE process will you wait before issuing redundancy notices?

[beeswax]

One of the many things which came up in conversation with the deputy head in charge of BSF at our school, was,

"I work a lot of unpaid extra hours in order that certain things can be delivered at a certain time, and I do this because I believe in what the school is trying to achieve. There is an ethos here, and in many schools, where you go the extra mile in order that a pupil, or pupils can fulfill a task. How are private companies and managed networks going to maintain that ethos when we are no longer answerable to the teachers and pupils?"

If you think many of us do the minimum work required, I refer to this post of mine.

 

A second point arose some days later talking to the head. I think he was seeing how much we'd be prepared to do "behind the company's back", as in,

"Surely, we wouldn't have to call the helpdesk in order that a simple task such as reminding a teacher which laptop keys they need to press in order to have screen and monitor working simultaneously?"

The simple answer to that is, yes you would, otherwise the company would think that it's providing a perfectly acceptable service, when in fact it's not meeting any of its targets.

The person who pays my salary dictates what I do, and if I don't like it then I get out.

[Grommit]

How long after the TUPE process will you wait before issuing redundancy notices?

 

90 days.. They only have to keep you for 90 dyas after thet they can do what they want..

 

One of the many things which came up in conversation with the deputy head in charge of BSF at our school, was,

"I work a lot of unpaid extra hours in order that certain things can be delivered at a certain time, and I do this because I believe in what the school is trying to achieve. There is an ethos here, and in many schools, where you go the extra mile in order that a pupil, or pupils can fulfill a task. How are private companies and managed networks going to maintain that ethos when we are no longer answerable to the teachers and pupils?"

If you think many of us do the minimum work required, .

 

A couple of years ago I was in a BSF meeting with a lot of companies in an "informal" chat with the Council...

 

It got a bit heated around responsibilities and I mentioned that my first responsibility is for the School and the school is my only priority.. and a company director stated quite clearly that his responsibility is first to his shareholders and then to the client..

 

So I sarcastically mentioned "Oh i see it's every child matters with you then".. and it then kicked off a bit

[CyberNerd]

From April 2007 the TUPE regulations were enhanced, these are notes from legislation:

 

1) The transferee inherits any outstanding liabilities

- failure to observe terms and conditions

- failure to observe employment rights

Employee can make a claim against the transferee for

- Breech of contract

- Personal injury

- Sex discrimination

Even if it takes place after the transfer

 

2) Employees position

transfered employees under TUPE retain all the rights and obligations which are transferred to the new employer except occupational pensions.

Terms and conditions cannot be varied by the transferee when the principle reason is:

- the transfer itself

- a reason connected with the transfer which is not an economic, technical or organisational reason entailing changes in the workforce.

n.b. an employer cannot impose new terms and conditions without the agreement of the employees, any changes would have to be agreed by the employee or by his union representative

 

3) Consultation with the affected workforce must take place prior to the transfer. The employer must inform the workforce and/or the recognised trade union.

- that the transfer is going to take place, when and why

- the legal, economic and social implication of the transfer for the affected employees.

- whether the employer envisages taking any action (re-organisation) in connection with the transfer which will affect the employees and if so what acion is envisaged

- the previous employer is also required to give information to the employees prior to the transfer, they must disclose whether the prospective new employer envisages carrying out any action which will affect the employees and if so what.

[Guest Guest]

^ lmao Good man.

 

Seriously though, good man. You cant privatise a child education FFS. Even if we all take a selfish vieew of it; you can privatise *the next generations* education ie the people who will be supporting us in the future!

 

I just dont understand what the government are trying to achive here?

 

They will be paying more money.

They will have FAR less flexible staff/support - i really cant see a company popping in to take photos/edit videos etc

The service will be much slower aswell - get to the back of the que...

 

This countries going down the pan, what with more and more schools being owned by companies and religious bodies we're going to end up like the US - ie whoevers mummy and daddy have the most money/sway...

[GrumbleDook]

I think I have previously mentioned in here that I have been puzzled by some people who think that the LA going for the managed service is the better option ... if they TUPE you it will be under the same rules as if RM, Ramesys, Captia or others ... and there is no guarantee that they will remain part of the LA (look at those that have been spun off and picked up by Capita).

 

Anyway ... back to the original question.

 

My questions to ask in the podcast are ...

 

If a person from the school knows that the introduction of certain technology can serously improve the attainment and achievement of students, can lower the administrative load of staff or provide cost savings for various areas of the school, yet it is not specified in the contract with the Managed Service Provider ... what would be the process by which a school can implement this technology?

 

If a technician is placed at a particular school who comletes their performance management, looks after their CPD (remembering that the school's needs do not always match that of the company or the individual technician), and deals with disciplinary issues.

 

The lack of union representation in some schools can mean that support staff have very little representations. As the support staff would now be employed by a company what is the expected impact of unions on negotiations for pay or conditions. After all, if the union is not happy and asks for a walk out from one company it now affects a range of schools instead of a single school.

 

What scope is there for school based NMs and technicians to still be actively involved in local, regional and national interest groups and working parties (town / area based, LA learning platforms groups, RBC-based, Becta, SSAT, BCS, etc)?

[CyberNerd]

If a person from the school knows that the introduction of certain technology can serously improve the attainment and achievement of students, can lower the administrative load of staff or provide cost savings for various areas of the school, yet it is not specified in the contract with the Managed Service Provider ... what would be the process by which a school can implement this technology?

Additionally, If the company in question cannot/does not supply this technology (or this particular equipment model) Can the service/equipment be purchased elsewhere?

[Grommit]

 

What scope is there for school based NMs and technicians to still be actively involved in local, regional and national interest groups and working parties (town / area based, LA learning platforms groups, RBC-based, Becta, SSAT, BCS, etc)?

 

That is a good point GD... There is going to be a massive cull of IT Professionals in the Education Sector.. there is a massive pool of knowledge that is just going to be wiped out by "profit"

 

What a loss to the Country... I mean it's not quite the same as shipping a few thousand helpdesk roles offshore..

 

We are talking about IT Managers and Technicians that had years of knowledge

[GrumbleDook]

@Grommit

Also remember that not everyone out there is as pro-active as we would like or schools need.

 

We *all* know of schools (even our own) where there are people working as NMs or Techies that are a severe hindrance to the T&L that should be going one ... it can be through laziness, incompetence, lack of skills, ego, paranioa and a number of others ...

 

We have mentioned previously that it is roughly split into thirds ... one third pushes the boundary, one third has the status quo and one third are below par ...

 

I'm going to add another question.

 

What will be the procedure or time scale for removing staff that are found to be below standard for the roles they are being employed for and what will be the process for trying to upskill or re-train them?

 

Let's face it ... the company might choose to move a complete idiot to a different school to fill in the numbers required and the last thing a school needs in all of this is a complete waste of space arriving and making things worse during what will be a stressful time anyway.

[Grommit]

@Grommit

 

Let's face it ... the company might choose to move a complete idiot to a different school to fill in the numbers required and the last thing a school needs in all of this is a complete waste of space arriving and making things worse during what will be a stressful time anyway.

 

Good point... Lets bring another point into the topic..

 

OFSTED.. now how many of us do the most bizarre things that are OTT and not standard practice to make sure that the OFSTED runs smoothly ..

 

I mean the teaching staff are all running like maniacs and the SLT are freakin out...

 

So how will RM techies be involved in this ?.. because in OFSTED every PC and every white boad has to work with a spare in the corridor in case of PC or Projector failure.. etc..

 

Teachers come up with some awkward ideas to teach during the inspections and we have to make sure that it all works

 

(i.e.Assembly.. powerpoint with embedded video, DVD to be played, CD with music and a mic for the teacher) all to be run in a 15min slot.)

 

Sorry whats that?..... you are being observed next period by OFSTED inspectors and the projector is not working... "sorry I have a job list and I don't work for the school ...... please contact the helpdesk and a job ticket will be issued..." said the now deceased techie

[tosca925]

Sorry... you are being observed next period by OFSTED inspectors and the projector is not working... "sorry I have a job list and I don't work for the school ...... please contact the helpdesk and a job ticket will be issued..." said the now deceased techie

 

Can you imagine the teachers and SLT if this was the situation. Some schools don't know how lucky they are with their IT support, but i think eventually they will find out when they get a second class managed service support bod.

 

It will mean the good schools who use ICT to its max and try new things will drop down with ICT and the por schools who have poor ICT staff for whatever reason will see a maybe improvement.

 

What i don't like is how little the school or SLT know whats going on or what is going to happen to us. DO they realise that I or any of my team could be moved to another school or central point and they will get a password.printer cartridge changing numpty to replace 3 of us? I doubt it and i also get the feeling that when they do thre will be uproar but it will be too late then.

[localzuk]

What i don't like is how little the school or SLT know whats going on or what is going to happen to us. DO they realise that I or any of my team could be moved to another school or central point and they will get a password.printer cartridge changing numpty to replace 3 of us? I doubt it and i also get the feeling that when they do thre will be uproar but it will be too late then.

 

That is my big thing at the moment - no-one knows about this scheme in our school and whenever I mention it the other staff I work with they don't believe that the likelyhood will be that my role vanishes and is replaced by a drooling box ticker...

[beeswax]

I did ask our "man in the council" what provision there would be for training and update of skills once we'd been moved across to private hands. He usually gets back to me pretty quickly, but not this time.

[Grommit]

I did ask our "man in the council" what provision there would be for training and update of skills once we'd been moved across to private hands. He usually gets back to me pretty quickly, but not this time.

 

Has anyone got contacts with Teachers, HOD's, AH's, DH's or Heads at schools in the fallen counties ?

 

Then we can get a SLT point of view from these schools and that counts for a lot with other Heads...

 

All we need is 4 or 5 schools saying that the service is bad, overpriced, restrictive and NOT Value for money then the whole enforced managed services might go down the pan...

 

http://www.edugeek.net/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=5499

[broc]

Terms and conditions cannot be varied by the transferee when the principle reason is:

- the transfer itself

- a reason connected with the transfer which is not an economic, technical or organisational reason entailing changes in the workforce.

n.b. an employer cannot impose new terms and conditions without the agreement of the employees, any changes would have to be agreed by the employee or by his union representative

 

 

Don't rely upon TUPE to save you. The TUPE regulations are geared towards allowing your union and your ex-employer to sleep at nights.....thinking they have done the best they can for you.

 

To pick up on two points:

 

Economic,Technical,Organisational(ETO) reasons mean there is a huge backdoor in TUPE rules allowing the employer to get rid of staff

 

eg

1) Technical - You are skilled in Microsoft products, the service provider has proposed UNIX/thin client and they don't need your Microsoft skills, ........ it's bye-bye

 

2) Economic - The service provider says he is going bust unless he sheds labour..... bye bye again

 

3) Organisational - The service provider says he can manage all servers centrally, from some remote outpost in his empire, so he does not need NMs in every school....bye bye once again.

 

Cannot impose new terms and conditions; sounds good, but dead easy to circumvent.....

 

""So, you want a promotion, pay rise, no problem.... just sign here, and by the way, your pay rise/promotion is conditional on you accepting new T&C" So you accept the T&C that every other poor soul in the service providers organisation has to accept because they joined without TUPE protection.

 

Go no further than those Local Authorities who are attempting to impose T&C changes on their own employees as part of single status right across the country, in many cases forcing employees to take pay cuts so that they can settle the huge number of pay claims due to discrimination of low paid female local government workers.

 

Don't be fooled by TUPE, or rely upon the LA to 'do the right thing' for you.

[webman]

All this BSF talk is very demotivating. I propose a ban on all BSF topics, don rose tinted glasses and get on with our jobs

[Guest Guest]

^ Here here. If we all close our eyes it will all go away :twisted:

[Grommit]

All this BSF talk is very demotivating. I propose a ban on all BSF topics, don rose tinted glasses and get on with our jobs

 

Pleeeeaaase... I know of people that have been sidelined because of the BSF and it's gonna get far far worse as the BSF steamroller really starts moving...

 

We were told that only now will the BSF ball start rolling... the pathfinders have just finished and the main program is about to roll..

 

So.. carry on with you job as tho everything is ok and when they TUPE you or show you the door I hope your skillset has improved and your CV sorted or change careers...

 

because unless you want to be a toner / password changer there is no future in the Education IT sector...

 

Resistance is futile... we are the RM and prepare to be Assimilated into the Managed Services Collective

[john]

^ Here here. If we all close our eyes it will all go away :twisted:

May as well burry your head in the sand Or go work for the private education sector where BSF has no place

[m25man]

Here is a scenario,

 

A school is about to undergo transformation through BSF.

The existing school has 1 year to go before closure and transfer to the new site.

The existing IT staff not wanting to hang around and be wasted by the new BSF management company jump ship early, leaving the school IT systems totally unmanned and unsupported.

 

What happens?

 

My guess is it used to cost the school £45k pa for the old team so I would think to get an agency team in for a 12 month contract would be worth about £80k

 

I bet nobody thought that scenario out at the LEA when they went for it!

 

Lets face it with BSF outsourcing most of the schools non teaching jobs and the Americans taking over the Management and Senior Teaching Posts - (See how Edison are moving into the UK with over 50 schools now in thier control) all the remaining teaching staff will be forced to conform to the corporate school model and we will end up with a school system as efficient as the NHS.

 

I belive BSF is just another black hole for taxpayers cash to dissappear into and the only people to benefit long term will be the shareholders.

 

All of the schools will eventually be owned outright by the property developers that rebuilt them and the LEA's will be forced to pay exorbatant amounts of cash to keep them open in 10 years time.

 

Mortgaging Schools for the Future is a more apt name!

 

Waterloo Road begins to look like reality TV everytime I see it!

[russdev]

because unless you want to be a toner / password changer there is no future in the Education IT sector...

 

Resistance is futile... we are the RM and prepare to be Assimilated into the Managed Services Collective

 

 

So all these managed service companies are going to run, mend & manage the pc's with mind power then??

 

and grommit we have seen/understand your agenda have you even thought about the fact rm may have got the contracts because they are doing something right.

 

You only have to look at mess in Leicester with bsf to realises what happens when companies who bid bsf contracts don't think about the tender and then win.

 

Being that you are in Scotland and not under bsf you do seem to take this very personally.

 

Remember contracts are decided by LA not bid winners so terms of contract are down to what LA want.

 

Russell

[webman]

We know school networks aren't run by mind power. But these companies already have their own employees who will manage the networks or will consoldate roles.

 

Currently 3 schools: 3 local network managers, and 6 local techies.

 

BSF 1 school: 1 Managed ICT service with existing network technicians. 3 network managers and 6 techies. It just does not compute.

 

I think, Russ, that what we are getting at is that network managers and senior technicians will not have the responsibility, job satisfaction and impact to the school that we and the schools currently enjoy. We will be TUPE'd and then made redundant when the managed service has too many staff; one lucky person may get network manager and the rest will do monkey work - and be on the receiving end of flac from school staff because of the many failures of the 'new' IT system, and why the serivce you used to be able to provide suddenly vanished.

[Grommit]

because unless you want to be a toner / password changer there is no future in the Education IT sector...

 

Resistance is futile... we are the RM and prepare to be Assimilated into the Managed Services Collective

 

You only have to look at mess in Leicester with bsf to realises what happens when companies who bid bsf contracts don't think about the tender and then win.

 

Being that you are in Scotland and not under bsf you do seem to take this very personally.

 

Russell

 

 

Sorry Russel.. I am not in Scotland but in England working in a Pathfinder School in the West of England...

 

My jaw dropped a few years ago when the BSF consultants came in and said that the ICT department would be Service Managed, all staff would be TUPED or retrenched and that the school had no say in it..

 

Thats why I am so vocal.. because I have been there and understand what in means to see all that you have worked for get flushed away and know that you have no future because some low paid drone in RM will be the one working on your server and the rest of the school servers in the county...

 

and if you want to work in te school you have grown to love with the staff that you have bonded with over the past 8 years you have to become a low paid techie drone..

 

 

Yea I have an agenda.... and thats to get the ICT managers of England mobilised to save their jobs..

 

Russel.. what is you role now ? and please can you tell us how you propose to keep your job when the BSF rolls in..

 

because as I know the Prefered Bidder in Leicestershire pulled out and they had to get a new supplier... but that will still not stop the BSF from taking over the ICT