PiqueABoo Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) Formal announcement of a known initiative isn't it? For instance County ICT folk did a course specifically about the implications with added VS VB a couple of months ago. Suspect it will all end up as a political *nix [+whatever] vs. MS + VB thing, which is sad coz I don't think the real world is best represented by either. PS: It's aleady doomed: Computer games entrepreneur Ian Livingstone, an adviser to Mr Gove, envisages a new curriculum that could have 16-year-olds creating their own apps for smartphones and 18-year-olds able to write their own simple programming language. My emphasis. Spent a log time full-time s/w engineering stuff that worked and never felt the need, or found anything remotely like a need to write a programming language. The kind of folk who did were the ones I resented coz they always wrote the most ambitious, bloated, unpragmatic and ultimately seriously broken code. Edited January 11, 2012 by PiqueABoo
6Foot2 Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) This has been issued by DFE and is relevant to this thread: Link: ICT curriculum to be replaced by rigorous Computer Science - The Department for Education Edited January 11, 2012 by 6Foot2 Correct spelling mistake. 3
CAM Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 Regardless, ANYTHING has got to be better than them being taught that an application is purely a GUI...*SNIP* That's the problem, we have had years of people being taught in this manner and where will the skills be to teach the advanced stuff? This new programme by the TDA had better be good because no-one in their right mind should think of starting a career in education right now, not with the large budget cutting axe that has been swinging back and forth over everyone's heads. Bar the occasional bright and excellent teacher, the best teachers should come from industry and pass their experiences on. Someone who has coded a phone app and forged their way in the business world will provide a far higher quality of teaching students to create such an app then someone who has jumped out of a degree, into teacher training and are just repeating the stuff they were taught a few years ago. I jumped from a degree program into support staff myself and sometimes look at my skills and think "How much better would these skills be if I had a few years in industry first?" :/
Mr.Ben Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 I do worry where the skills to teach the advanced stuff now. The syllabus of the last 10 years has been Personally I don't think that ICT should ever have been a subject anyway, these are core skills should have been taught as part of other subjects (plus most kids could pass the ICT GCSE in primary school). The problem is that with the explosion of IT in the last 10 years many Teaching Staff are unprepared to teach even the basics. I think Computer Science should be an optional subject at GCSE and above. Discuss :-)
Arthur Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 So does this mean a move away from Microsoft services too, and a move to open source projects? Definitely not... blogs.computerworlduk.com/open-enterprise/2012/01/uk-cabinet-office-betrayal-of-open-standards-confirmed/index.htm
CyberNerd Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 Definitely not... blogs.computerworlduk.com/open-enterprise/2012/01/uk-cabinet-office-betrayal-of-open-standards-confirmed/index.htm remember this: The Conservative Party | News | News | Improving IT procurement and encouraging open source hypocrits
laserblazer Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 Will a Computer Science Technician get paid more than an ICT Technician? 1
CyberNerd Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 Will a Computer Science Technician get paid more than an ICT Technician? lmao. if your lucky they'll downgrade you to that of subject/science technician
sonofsanta Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 This has been issued by DFE and is relevant to this thread: Link: ICT curriculum to be replaced by rigorous Computer Science - The Department for Education "industry experts including Ian Livingstone – co-founder of Games Workshop" - much as I love me some Warhammer, I'd have thought his role in Eidos might be a bit more pertinent to the subject at hand... It looks like it's actually a devolution of subject content to the teacher at hand and away from ministers, which is brilliant and just the kind of thing we need across the board. The only worry is that some teachers are going to think "I can do what I'm like... I have the materials ready for the current curriculum... I'll keep doing what I'm already doing", but all in all, it looks pretty promising to me. No more needing lunchtime clubs to prop up an anaemic curriculum.
mthomas08 Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 remember this: The Conservative Party | News | News | Improving IT procurement and encouraging open source hypocrits As much as things change, they stay the same. If the gov pushes for open source, sounds like they had a falling out with MS. We here will not be going Open Source for as long as my self and the current IS Manager is here, we had some one tell us we could save 100k a year through that (long story with this guy). End result was the Head now listens to far more what we say then ever before and everything goes through us. If every business switches to the likes of Open Office we will install it on every PC for students to get used to it but till that happens we stick to the far better much improved office 2010 thank you very much
CyberNerd Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 As much as things change, they stay the same. If the gov pushes for open source, sounds like they had a falling out with MS. That was from an independent study, before the tories got semi elected. They now change their tune when in govt. We here will not be going Open Source for as long as my self and the current IS Manager is here, we had some one tell us we could save 100k a year through that (long story with this guy). End result was the Head now listens to far more what we say then ever before and everything goes through us. If every business switches to the likes of Open Office we will install it on every PC for students to get used to it but till that happens we stick to the far better much improved office 2010 thank you very much We saved £60k per year by NOT buying MSOffice through EES - yes that is what we were quoted.
mthomas08 Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 We saved £60k per year by NOT buying MSOffice through EES - yes that is what we were quoted. OUCH! Thats almost our budget right there a year, did you plan a massive upgrade/install? With us here we purchased upgrade licenses as we brought new PCs/Laptops, now though we pay an annual fee to MS which allows us to upgrade all our PCS to any future MS product. Even that fee is no where near your 60k and we are paying for roughly 200 staff. It's why the saved 100k didnt exist for us, we already had been paying over 10 years worth of MS licenses, some allowed us to 2000-2003 others allowed us 2003-2007 etc.
localzuk Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) As much as things change, they stay the same. If the gov pushes for open source, sounds like they had a falling out with MS. We here will not be going Open Source for as long as my self and the current IS Manager is here, we had some one tell us we could save 100k a year through that (long story with this guy). End result was the Head now listens to far more what we say then ever before and everything goes through us. If every business switches to the likes of Open Office we will install it on every PC for students to get used to it but till that happens we stick to the far better much improved office 2010 thank you very much Yeah, you've missed the entire point. It isn't about replacing everything with open source software. The original government policy was to encourage the use of open standards. Eg. Using ODF instead of DOCX, using SOAP/REST instead of proprietory interfaces between systems etc... This would then have opened the market to using smaller companies, or open source solutions which can inter-operate easily with the others. No-one says you should switch the entire infrastructure in your school to open source, and anyone doing so without giving you a TCO breakdown which includes retraining etc... is pulling a fast one. However, saying you won't use it stubbornly simply means you're not doing your job right IMO - as keeping an open mind about all possible solutions to the ongoing problems in any network is key to what we do. If LibreOffice could replace Microsoft Office and reduced the TCO for you, even though it would involve retraining then that should surely be approached as a solution. Simply saying 'Office 2010 is better' isn't saying why it is better. What can a student in a school do in Office 2010 that they can't do in Libre Office? It's why the saved 100k didnt exist for us, we already had been paying over 10 years worth of MS licenses, some allowed us to 2000-2003 others allowed us 2003-2007 etc. Did you do a TCO analysis of using Office over, say, 10 years and compare it to the cost of Libre Office or similar? Edited January 12, 2012 by localzuk
teejay Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 That was from an independent study, before the tories got semi elected. They now change their tune when in govt. We saved £60k per year by NOT buying MSOffice through EES - yes that is what we were quoted. Blimey, are you at a University or something as on EES you would need over 1500 staff to get to that figure, even with the Desktop Enterprise CAL. The only other way you could get to that is if you have laptops allocated to each individual student.
CyberNerd Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 OUCH! Thats almost our budget right there a year, did you plan a massive upgrade/install? Blimey, are you at a University or something as on EES you would need over 1500 staff to get to that figure, even with the Desktop Enterprise CAL. The only other way you could get to that is if you have laptops allocated to each individual student. It's because the school ICT vision states that we should allow students 'anywhere, anytime' access to resources on a ubiquity of devices. This is an educational vision as opposed to some thing we (IT) wanted to do. I believe it has a sound educational basis. To fulfil this vision we need to be able to allow students to use X device (ipad,iphone,laptop, tablet etc) at home and do homework. To enable this we use Citrix. To give students an MSOffice license at home means the home machine must be licensed for office use. This is extortionately expensive to do, esp when considering Citrix and Terminal server licensing. OpenOffice and Google Apps is much cheaper and fulfils all of the curriculum requirements. notwithstanding the 'used in industry argument' the main issue we have is with Capita forcing export to Excel - this could be solved by a govt if they chose. 1
X-13 Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 What can a student in a school do in Office 2010 that they can't do in Libre Office? Become dependent on Microsoft. 2
Theblacksheep Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 We saved £60k per year by NOT buying MSOffice through EES - yes that is what we were quoted. How big is your school? 300 FT here is about 11k per year for ESS.
CyberNerd Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 How big is your school? 300 FT here is about 11k per year for ESS. It doesn't cover office licenses for every students home device via terminal services.
Theblacksheep Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 It doesn't cover office licenses for every students home device via terminal services. gotcha. ouch, quite a provision!
teejay Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 It's because the school ICT vision states that we should allow students 'anywhere, anytime' access to resources on a ubiquity of devices. This is an educational vision as opposed to some thing we (IT) wanted to do. I believe it has a sound educational basis. To fulfil this vision we need to be able to allow students to use X device (ipad,iphone,laptop, tablet etc) at home and do homework. To enable this we use Citrix. To give students an MSOffice license at home means the home machine must be licensed for office use. This is extortionately expensive to do, esp when considering Citrix and Terminal server licensing. OpenOffice and Google Apps is much cheaper and fulfils all of the curriculum requirements. notwithstanding the 'used in industry argument' the main issue we have is with Capita forcing export to Excel - this could be solved by a govt if they chose. Ah, yes, good point! We use live@edu which has a web based basic version of office, if they need more we point them to the student version which they can buy themselves.
mthomas08 Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 No-one says you should switch the entire infrastructure in your school to open source, and anyone doing so without giving you a TCO breakdown which includes retraining etc... is pulling a fast one. However, saying you won't use it stubbornly simply means you're not doing your job right IMO - as keeping an open mind about all possible solutions to the ongoing problems in any network is key to what we do. If LibreOffice could replace Microsoft Office and reduced the TCO for you, even though it would involve retraining then that should surely be approached as a solution. Simply saying 'Office 2010 is better' isn't saying why it is better. What can a student in a school do in Office 2010 that they can't do in Libre Office? Did you do a TCO analysis of using Office over, say, 10 years and compare it to the cost of Libre Office or similar? Guess I am not doing my job then? Even though we currently have it installed on 1/3 of our system and never gets used? In fact the main reason why it is there are those who have it installed at home. What I was saying is if the Gov is pushing for Open Source we will indeed be pushing back telling them Office 2010 is what we want and we will kick up as much fuss as they can and now we are an academy we are pulled away from KCC (if they decide as well if Open Source is the way).
X-13 Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 Capita forcing export to Excel - this could be solved by a govt if they chose. If OpenOffice is set as the default for Excel files, and Excel isn't installed, shouldn't OpenOffice pick it up? Or is it a literal case of it being forced? [by which I mean the software is actually looking for Excel. Doubtful, but it could happen...]
teejay Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 If OpenOffice is set as the default for Excel files, and Excel isn't installed, shouldn't OpenOffice pick it up? Or is it a literal case of it being forced? [by which I mean the software is actually looking for Excel. Doubtful, but it could happen...] IIRC SIMS has to have Excel and Word installed on the machines to be able to generate the reports, it uses some API's or something from within Excel and Word. I beleive you can get away with the Excel and Word viewers for this, not 100% certain.
localzuk Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Guess I am not doing my job then? Even though we currently have it installed on 1/3 of our system and never gets used? In fact the main reason why it is there are those who have it installed at home. What I was saying is if the Gov is pushing for Open Source we will indeed be pushing back telling them Office 2010 is what we want and we will kick up as much fuss as they can and now we are an academy we are pulled away from KCC (if they decide as well if Open Source is the way). No, we don't *want* Office 2010 - we want a word processor to teach what we need to teach. We want a spreadsheet to teach that. Specifying one package is ridiculous to say the least. People aren't using LibreOffice? Why? I know why, its because you added it as a token measure to allow people to actually be inter-operable and so that kids aren't forced to buy MS Office. If it was installed instead of Office and people were given the basic training that they have had with Office, then its use would be just like that which Office gets. The 2 suites have directly comparable tools and capabilities. Your argument is basically 'we're used to X, we're sticking with X' from what I can tell. And to my anonymous fan who left the neg rep with "Blimey - another subject you are never wrong on. Is there no end to your greatness!", I'll say 'of course there's no end to my greatness!' 8-) Or... I have experience in this, being a network manager, managing a budget, seeing what my schools need and what can fulfill the requirements. If I couldn't, I wouldn't be very good at my job now would I? Am I not allowed an opinion? Edited January 12, 2012 by localzuk 1
X-13 Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) IIRC SIMS has to have Excel and Word installed on the machines to be able to generate the reports, it uses some API's or something from within Excel and Word. I beleive you can get away with the Excel and Word viewers for this, not 100% certain. I just looked it up. Apparently, SIMs shells out to word/excel. From what I understand... It literally forces MS Office. I've also heard of SIMs breaking if MS Office isn't installed in the default location. Your argument is basically 'we're used to X, we're sticking with X' from what I can tell. This is how I read it... But, I'm not going to get into an argument with people over which office suite is better. If people here are fully licenced for Office 2010, It works well and they're happy with it, I don't care. Likewise, if people here don't have MS Office and are happy with using Libre Office, I don't care. If they need help/advice, I'll help/advise the best I can. Without any "X is better" comments. [EDIT: That sounds like I'm having a go... I'm not. I'm just saying I'll help anyone/everyone.] Am I not allowed an opinion? Welcome to the Internet. Where men are boys, women are men, children are FBI agents and no-one is allowed an opinion. Edited January 12, 2012 by X-13 Adding a couple of replies to Mr. Localzuk.
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