How do you.....explain to a teacher what is legal and illegal.....

[localzuk]

Lets call it murder then instead shall we.

 

"A man was found to have committed murder 11 times yesterday when he copied his CD onto his ipod"

 

Not even close to being a suitable comparison. Copyright infringement is closer to being theft than it is murder... ie. the original artist is having their work taken and used without their permission. Sure, you're not taking a physical item, but why must theft be a physical item? What if I were to steal an idea that you had? Would that be theft? If someone had gone to the guy who created Facebook, heard about his idea, then rushed to market and created his own identical service? I'd say that was theft, yet nothing physical has been taken...

[GREED]

Well...

 

Firstly lets not call it murder, thats only a little bit distasteful to compare the two.

 

Secondly, copying to a personal device for personal use... is that illegal?

 

Either way we are talking about this being used publically, where there are strict rules on.

 

Edit: Fully agree Localz

Edited November 25, 2010 by GREED

[Pete10141748]

My experience with this is, it's a losing battle.

Refuse to copy the CD for them, they'll find someone else to do it (either in school or at home).

Tell them they can't play DVDs at the end of term and you're likely to get you head bitten off.

 

If they ask you to do something that you know it illegal, you should refuse.

If they get uppity about it, go to your line manager and tell them you are being asked, or even pressured, into committing an illegal act that not only could land the school in trouble but also personally affects you, and that is why you refuse to do it.

 

If the Head of the school orders you to do it, well, I'd go over their head to the Governors and tell them what was happening; any person who is directing you to perform illegal acts should not be running a school!

[Roberto]

If they ask you to do something that you know it illegal, you should refuse.

If they get uppity about it, go to your line manager and tell them you are being asked, or even pressured, into committing an illegal act that not only could land the school in trouble but also personally affects you, and that is why you refuse to do it.

 

Have to agree with this. It's wholly inappropriate to be 'forced' into breaking the law at work and I'd always refuse. (I should say now that my employer has always supported the 'refuse' point of view themselves...)

 

What are they going to do? Sack us The industrial tribunal and local press coverage for that would be a bloodbath...

[somabc]

Not even close to being a suitable comparison. Copyright infringement is closer to being theft than it is murder... ie. the original artist is having their work taken and used without their permission. Sure, you're not taking a physical item, but why must theft be a physical item? What if I were to steal an idea that you had? Would that be theft? If someone had gone to the guy who created Facebook, heard about his idea, then rushed to market and created his own identical service? I'd say that was theft, yet nothing physical has been taken...

 

Yes but there is more to this than just semantics. If you have a car and I steal it then you don't have a car (theft). If you have an idea and I use your idea then we both have the idea (infringement). I don't think we should conflate the two concepts. Language is being abused here for political purposes.

 

I was obviously using murder as an extreme example, however courts often give out sentences for theft that are equivalent to the sentence given out for murder. Eg. Armed Robbery, 20 years to life.

 

And of course real life pirates do murder people.

 

People who like to call infringement theft have this broad view that using something without permission of an authority figure equals theft. They've stretched the term from simply "stealing someone else's property" to include "stealing someone else's choice in letting you copy 'their content'" and "stealing someone else's ability to make money off of the 'content' you're using."

Edited March 31, 2011 by ZeroHour

[jcollings]

Then user awareness gets added into the mix. We had a policy to delete (with roll back available, obviously) suspect files without notice. Staff have to realise in particular that this should not be a constant running battle, thems the rules!

 

I think at the end of the day, the bottom line is that like it or not is illegal and needs to be stopped, excuses will not save the individual or school from prosecution should it come to that.

 

So a student's music/media/languages/technology coursework or teaching resources that are legit are deleted as a matter of routine (how you determine suspect is another issue) and to continue working on it or when they need it for a lesson they have to get it restored. I've got to say that doesn't feel over customer friendly to me.

[jcollings]

We don't use any of those file types for lessons. Movie files are not permitted on the servers as playing movies without having a streaming media server just brings the servers to a crawl. If anyone wants to play music they do so from thier USB sticks or external drives.

 

You're very lucky then because we use audio & video files in many subjects created by both staff and students. Media studies have to produce video files, MFL use mp3 recorders, music make mp3 files etc etc. Surely your staff and students must do the same?

[localzuk]

Yes but there is more to this than just semantics. If you have a car and I steal it then you don't have a car (theft). If you have an idea and I use your idea then we both have the idea (infringement). I don't think we should conflate the two concepts. Language is being abused here for political purposes.

 

It is still stealing something though - just not a physical thing. You are instead stealing someone's time, effort, investment and creativity. If you have a builder in to do some work, provide them with all the materials and then don't pay them, you'd be prosecuted for theft of services. If you connect to someone else's power line and use their power, you aren't taking a physical thing from them, but you are still stealing.

[GREED]

So a student's music/media/languages/technology coursework or teaching resources that are legit are deleted as a matter of routine (how you determine suspect is another issue) and to continue working on it or when they need it for a lesson they have to get it restored. I've got to say that doesn't feel over customer friendly to me.

 

Not at all, we had a very good happy customer base whereby they know the rules. We had directories set up for such work that were tailored to allow specific types of files, solely for use by the course-work and solely for the individual for that lesson, and because of this we were on top of any misuse.

 

I still come back to the original point, excuses are not getting around the rules, and so 'well we couldn't keep on top of it because they had coursework' will not hold up in court. Importantly we worked with the staff and students to arrange suitable solutions, the above is an example on one such.

[HarryMonkey]

Whether it's infringement, theft, murder or whatever, the fact still remains that whether you agreee with it or not, it's illegal and we should not be doing it or condoning anyone that does. Any requests, instructions, or pressure from staff to do so should be directed to a higher authority or simply met with a flat refusal to do it.

 

Incidentally, if you were unable to download the music track etc. Would they expect you to go into HMV and steal the CD for them?

[soveryapt]

So a student's music/media/languages/technology coursework or teaching resources that are legit are deleted as a matter of routine (how you determine suspect is another issue) and to continue working on it or when they need it for a lesson they have to get it restored. I've got to say that doesn't feel over customer friendly to me.

 

See my post and suggestion .. http://www.edugeek.net/forums/how-do-you-do/66325-how-do-you-explain-teacher-what-legal-illegal-4.html#post594723 .. in summary, if it's genuinely needed for work, etc, the staff member has to at least authorise, if not actually complete, the paperwork for that and give it to the tech department to ensure it isn't deleted as a matter of routine .. if copyrighted material, it needs the appropriate permissions to go with ..

[soveryapt]

Incidentally, if you were unable to download the music track etc. Would they expect you to go into HMV and steal the CD for them?

 

Knowing some staff, they probably would! lol ..

[jcollings]

See my post and suggestion .. http://www.edugeek.net/forums/how-do-you-do/66325-how-do-you-explain-teacher-what-legal-illegal-4.html#post594723 .. in summary, if it's genuinely needed for work, etc, the staff member has to at least authorise, if not actually complete, the paperwork for that and give it to the tech department to ensure it isn't deleted as a matter of routine .. if copyrighted material, it needs the appropriate permissions to go with ..

 

So they have to authorise every mp3/video etc a student produces or they produce for work?

 

Don't get me wrong I'm not condoning illegal activity. I am just saying the "we run a script to delete all file types" approach seems flawed to me as stacks of legit stuff exists across most networks. How do you ensure you know what every staff member or student is saving legitimately and not delete it. Registering with IT support seems impossible - students save dozens of media files in all sorts of courses that they need and are legal.

[soveryapt]

So they have to authorise every mp3/video etc a student produces or they produce for work?

 

Don't get me wrong I'm not condoning illegal activity. I am just saying the "we run a script to delete all file types" approach seems flawed to me as stacks of legit stuff exists across most networks. How do you ensure you know what every staff member or student is saving legitimately and not delete it. Registering with IT support seems impossible - students save dozens of media files in all sorts of courses that they need and are legal.

 

I realise that it's a large task, but if there is genuine need for certain file types then the only real way to ensure that the files are no infringing on copyright is to have a paper trail of sorts. In an ideal world, educational needs would be exempt with a removal of files from, for example, a GCSE Group to archive after their year leaves.

 

The other method is to have set areas on drives that the legit stuff can be stored, or certain ways of naming files to ensure that they are marked as being legit, this way it saves the paper trail, but the flaw here is that if, taking my previous example, a member of staff wants to store "Take That - The Flood" somewhere for non-required usage, that by being shown how to put those things in place, they can easily have their illegal files stored.

 

Don't get me wrong, my method is also open to being got round by the simple fact they can rename a file and submit the paperwork and the file will stay. It was just a suggestion that for the genuinely legit stuff that there is a papertrail.

 

A class sized example could be that you have a folder called "GCSE 2011 Music" which is for all those who are doing their GCSE Music this year and leave at the end of this year. What you do then is get the member of staff responsible to complete a form saying that any of the media stored in this folder is for the use of the GCSE Music Students and that it falls within the remits of the educational use and that no unauthorised copyrighted material will be stored in this folder, then give access to those students and staff that need access and the folder is covered, and the responsibility then lies with that member of staff and the SLT of the school should issues arise. That way you can be seen to be doing all you can to combat copyright infringement in the school by having this in place.

 

It's a very big topic for discussion with a huge number of loopholes in any theory to how we can make it work for us and the schools, but (as the main theme is) if it is illegal and you are asked to do it, you shouldn't, this is just a way of combating the storage of illegal material on your network. If you word the agreements strongly enough that would, in a lot of cases, be enough to put staff off doing things. i.e. the final declaration along the lines of "by signing this form you agree to be wholly responsible for the content of this folder and, should an investigation be carried out and there found to be illegal material stored in this area, this form will be passed to the relevant authorities in the handling of the case" .. I know it sounds a bit severe, but it's all in an effort to ensure things are cut back.

[GREED]

I should add from the earlier post that now working with a good number of schools who also face the same issues are taking similar steps, not perfect but adequate, using drive spaces, naming conventions and user training.

[kennysarmy]

LOL

 

Today:

 

DVD "The Truman Show" left on my desk with a note ' 2 copies please'

 

Great!

[GREED]

Note back: No!

[mjs_mjs]

I'll give you + rep if you photocopy it.

 

i'm pretty sure that the images are copyrighted also.

[GREED]

Make a really cheap video of you spoiling the whole plot in 30 seconds, then put that on their desk as the copies...

[Face-Man]

This is based in the states but is very interesting at explaining what "fair use" is for resources

 

Copyright And Fair Use: Lesson Plans for High School, College and Graduate Education | Media Education Lab