Held to ransom over our own data!

[mrstephenw]

I wonder if anyone could advise me on an issue?

 

We signed up for a primary pad (PrimaryPad - Superfunky collaborative padding) and started writing a collaborative document. After a couple of months the primary pad had ceased to exists and instead a screen came up saying 'do we want to create one?'. Our data was gone!

 

I emailed support and was told that Primary Pads only have a 30day shelve life and to get my primary pad back we had to pay £140.00 for someone to restore the server where the data was held.

 

There was and still is nothing in the companies FAQ, Terms & Conditions or anywhere else on the website that tells the user that a primary pad is only available for 30 days!

 

I'm considering legal action against the company. Has anybody else had a problem with Primary Pad?

 

PrimaryPad - Superfunky collaborative padding

[GREED]

It is your data they are surely breaking DPA by witholding it.

[webman]

No compensation will be paid with respect to the use of your Submission, as provided herein. Primary Pad is under no obligation to post or use any Submission you may provide and may remove any Submission at any time in Primary Pad's sole discretion.

 

http://primarypad.com/static/tandc.html

 

The DPA only covers data held about a person/people. User-generated content such as documents/learning material aren't personal data and aren't covered by the Act.

[GREED]

Thank you for the clarification webman

[mrstephenw]

It's ALL our data.

 

The document was collaboratively written by staff, parents & governors. A lot of time went into it.

[GREED]

2 options really then (well three if you want to take to court): Pay the money then ditch them, or make it very very public about how rubbish and poor service they are. Let them know you will inform all schools you know how they have treated you and will advise no one uses them in the future.

 

You can tell I often get what I want from the likes of Sky, Virgin, BT etc

[mrstephenw]

Thanks for your replies.

 

Shouldn't it be made clear that the data is only held for 30 days?

[mrstephenw]

We may have considered paying them for their service initially but it's out of the question now.

 

I'm capable of going down that 2nd route Graham.

[GREED]

We may have considered paying them for their service initially but it's out of the question now.

 

I'm capable of going down that 2nd route Graham.

 

I don't know enough about the company, but if they are small and startup their reputation is going to be the biggest importance to them.

[SYNACK]

Trying not to be harsh here but why did you put a document that you considered important up on a service that in its T&Cs states that it may delete it at any time without backing it up yourselves?

 

and may remove any Submission at any time in Primary Pad's sole discretion.

 

It may be effort that you put in but they were under no obligation to keep it safe for you. You are probably quite lucky that they even have a procedure to recover it that they are willing to implement for you.

Edited November 16, 2010 by SYNACK

[localzuk]

To the op - did you pay anything for this site? If not, then you have absolutely no legs to stand on.

 

If you did pay something for this site, then you would possibly have some form of case against them, as they don't state that anything vanishes after 30 days. A generic 'we can delete stuff at any time' more than likely wouldn't hold muster in court.

[mrstephenw]

On hindsight we should have read the small print I guess.

 

There needs to be a certain element of trust when dealing with companies in the education sector. I guess Primary Technology has it's morals a little mixed up.

[mrstephenw]

Would it really matter if we paid or didn't pay though Localzuk?

[GREED]

Would it really matter if we paid or didn't pay though Localzuk?

 

Unfortunately it does. Imagin you posted all your stuff to EduGeek, and Dos removed it all after 30 days... where would you start with that?

 

I agree with you that primary schools in particular can be seen as easy targets for such happenings...

[localzuk]

Would it really matter if we paid or didn't pay though Localzuk?

 

Yes. If you haven't paid anything, then they have no contract with you that you can fall back on. They don't owe anyone anything.

 

An example - someone lends you their car, you leave a half tank of fuel in it and they don't return it. It isn't their responsibility to give you the fuel back...

[powdarrmonkey]

You've also agreed "consent to the exclusive jurisdiction and venue of courts in King County, Washington, U.S.A. in all disputes arising out of or relating to the use of the Primary Pad Web Site", and that "by posting, uploading, inputting, providing or submitting your Submission you are granting Primary Pad, without limitation, the rights to: copy, distribute, transmit, publicly display, publicly perform, reproduce, edit, translate and reformat your Submission; and to publish your name in connection with your Submission." Hmm.

 

(source: http://primarypad.com/static/tandc.html)

[mrstephenw]

I get your point.

 

So I guess the best method here is to give Primary Technology a little exposure?

[pete]

Would it really matter if we paid or didn't pay though Localzuk?

 

Why on earth did you keep the only copy of mission-critical documents on a free service that you had no business relationship with? You did read that it was only a 3 month trial when you signed up, right?

 

You used their service for free for 3 months, so it suited your purpose. When your trial expired (and your work was gone) you were unwilling to pay to continue using it. Bad-mouthing them because you failed to understand the nature of "trial" just makes you look foolish.

Edited November 16, 2010 by pete

[mrstephenw]

I never signed up for a trial, I just created a primary pad. It was just an alternative to Etherpad at the time - another free service. Just what we needed.

 

If I was made aware that it was a 30day/3 month trail from the start I would have exported the document. Simple.

 

I thought we could have kept on collaborating forever!

 

Who said anything about bad mouthing? I'm just making people aware.

[GrumbleDook]

It is a free service ... it is run by one of the collaborators on etherpad who helped to make sure there is an open source version. If you want to run a version yourself, you can do Etherpad Foundation

 

If John needs to update the FAQ or make the limitations a bit more overt then that can be pointed out. To be honest, if you liked it as a product for collaboration (and it can be a lot more fun that Google Docs for that) then sign up for a year just for senior leaders / key staff to collaborate. You have lost nothing and get your resource back.

 

As with a number of open source things, the money is in the support and expertise, not the licence ... so as I keep saying to people ... there is never anything for free.

[johnymac]

Thanks for the thread Steven. I'm happier when debating this sort of stuff in a public forum than in private where users needs aren't properly reflected.

 

Thanks also to everyone who has commented so far.

 

I'm the MD of Primary Technology, the company that runs PrimaryPad.

 

So yeah, legally we don't have to do anything, not even acknowledge your initial request but that would just be plain stupid and if we did that we would suck.

 

The fact of the matter is since we released Etherpad 1.1 we have been doing 3 installs per day all over the world. Please Consider we are only a small team and we run various other Web2 services(26 in total) so we don't get much time in the day to deal with issues that aren't easily reachable. Restoring data is a 20 minute job, but that is 20 minutes we don't have because of the amount of paid work we are doing. Restoring 20 lots of data is a 30 minute job. So it makes a lot more sense to do them in bulk.

 

My last email states "give me a few weeks and I will get back to you".

 

I think we need to clear this bit up.. You want the data restored (sure) and you want it within a time period all the free? Hrm.. I seem to be getting a raw deal here, what do other people think?

[johnymac]

PS. Our terms and condition and Privacy Statement suck. As is the case with 99% websites/web services. As a concept they are a joke but we legally have to have them. More easily understandable conditions will be live as soon as a standard is available.

[mrstephenw]

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I'm glad you like having your debates in public - it suggests to me a certain degree of honesty I've yet to admire about Primary Technology - Primary Pad.

 

We do however seem to be scooting around the basics of this case. Why don't you make it clear that your Primary Pads only last for 30 days?

 

I'd hate to think you were leading people into a false sense of security then stinging them with a 140.00 fine, but that's the reality, surely?

 

I do understand that your resources are limited and I appreciate this.

 

Here are a few suggestions from users at other forums:

 

- Making it clear your 'Primary Pad' only lasts for a month before you charge 140.00 to release the data.

 

- Making it mandatory for people to agree to your terms and conditions before allowing them to sign up.

 

Gosh, I wish my customers would allow me to charge them 140.00 for 20 mins work!

[nadeem]

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I'm glad you like having your debates in public - it suggests to me a certain degree of honesty I've yet to admire about Primary Technology - Primary Pad.

 

We do however seem to be scooting around the basics of this case. Why don't you make it clear that your Primary Pads only last for 30 days?

 

I'd hate to think you were leading people into a false sense of security then stinging them with a 140.00 fine, but that's the reality, surely?

 

I do understand that your resources are limited and I appreciate this.

 

Here are a few suggestions from users at other forums:

 

- Making it clear your 'Primary Pad' only lasts for a month before you charge 140.00 to release the data.

 

- Making it mandatory for people to agree to your terms and conditions before allowing them to sign up.

 

Gosh, I wish my customers would allow me to charge them 140.00 for 20 mins work!

 

 

It seems to me (I have no connection whatsoever with Primary Pad)

 

1) that it is quite clear on the front page of their web site that it is a 3 month trial (and that you have to pay after that)

2) You failed to backup important data to your school

3) A £140 fee for recovering work sounds reasonable - I've paid more for my institution (when its been our fault we didn't back something important up)

[johnymac]

My apologies in the late response, as you may know things are very busy at PrimaryT!

 

When you create a new pad it states in the pad contents that public pads only last for 30 days. Has done for 6months+.

 

It's not a fine. It's a charge to do some work that we never agreed we would do in the first place.

 

Under no circumstances do I agree to "- Making it mandatory for people to agree to your terms and conditions before allowing them to sign up." Barrier free learning is critical to a modern society and all of PrimaryT's services try to reflect this. I'd say kudos to PrimaryT for encouraging this type of service and learning.

 

You may have seen you can now subscribe to 12 months of PrimaryPad and pay as much as you want, I think this is a great deal and kudos to PrimaryT for putting it out there!

 

If you want more details see PrimaryPad 1 month only offer - Pay Whatever you want. -- Note to mods, this isn't a plug, it should help Stephen get started again!