Building Schools for the Future plans to be scrapped

[jason2234]

lol well i didn't think they we're just rubbish at our school but we will wait and see but from e-mails i have had and meetings i have notes from the data centre at least is under very serious discussions and i will not be surprised at all if it is cancelled. Hopefully we can just keep the IT in house which is how it should be anyway

[srochford]

After tupe your working conditions can change after 12 months or whatever the LA negotiate, I would not like to be in that position when the money gets tight.

 

I think you should check out some of this week's other news stories about pensions and other conditions of service for public sector employees - I rather doubt that anyone can sit back comfortably and say "Glad that's all over, my job's now safe on its current conditions"

[jsnetman]

I think you should check out some of this week's other news...

 

I agree, but would rather be in my existing employment rather than tuped when it happens.

[GoldenWonder]

How is this going to affect each local authority I wonder? Surely a BSF scheme that was designed to incorporate say 25 schools cannot be scaled back down to just include the 10-15 that are in the process of being finalised now?

 

I'm guessing each LA proposed an ICT solution for ALL their schools, so how are they going to scale this back to only suit the ones that have escaped the axe?

 

Personally I was wary of BSF purely for personal (i.e TUPE and redundancy!) reasons but the idea behind it was sound. Now some really shabby schools won't get rebuilt when they should be. Fortunately our schools buildings are pretty good, if old fashioned. Hopefully the worst schools in the country will have been targeted in the early phases and will continue to be rebuilt.

[mthomas08]

Must say we are now stopped, we are very happy that this is the case. BSF failed to mention to our heads that the IT Sourcing was optional. I totally understand the basic good ideas of BSF - New buildings, new IT equipment, new systems.

 

With all that - it could have saved us a lot of hassle 5 years ago when I first started working here. I started as a NVQ Technician and the current network manager left because they refused to pay him more. The current IS manager at the time was useless and the IT manager was no better. So you can guess we had 1-2 years worth of issues. Serious server failures, email going down, virus's.

 

Things got better when the new guy started, we worked much closer to get things working and better.

 

Today, we have multiple servers, very low downtime. Laptops are 90% up to 3 years old. 10% we are hoping to change next year.

 

We didnt like the idea of BSF because we finally got the type of IT System that works, BSF spec PC's were lower then what we got.

 

Biggest problem is when it comes to IT - heads, CET members etc have no clue how much work goes in to a server and are prepared to employ a basic tech like me (back in the day) to do the work of a network manager/systems manager. To me they should know it all And ofcourse, provide a very low budget.

 

I am currently doing a huge MCITP/MCSE course and wizzing through it because I had to deal with it for the past few years. Ofcourse things are not perfect - SQL I could do with the know how. I think some schools IT wise needed BSF and still do.

 

Also outsourcing IT on a school like this, we are so heavily reliant on IT, projectors, laptops, sims, software packages. We worked out that the cost of supporting our students would of cost far more with Northgate then what we currently spend on IT Equip/staff. And when you work out the cost of Northgate charging for software/new users etc etc it will add up even more. And for support which is not instant, we do our best to place support within 15 minutes. Sometimes instantly because we can drop what we are doing to connect up to a pc using netsupport.

Edited July 7, 2010 by mthomas08
Last part

[mrforgetful]

The problem with BSF was - it wasted money.

 

All our PCs are capable of performing whatever is needed of them, yet when BSF take ofer we throw them out. Why? We just spent 50k on machines this year. That's the problem.

 

The CDT department have 3 £10,000 lathes things. Under BSF they get thrown out and replaced with something else just so it's supported by the company taking over.

 

Waste, is what BSF was doing. Waste is what the new government have to erradicate. That's what they're doing.

 

Any new government would be faced with the same situation we're in, and the 'biggest school build since the Victorian era' isn't what we can afford as a nation right now.

[AyatollahPies]

The quality of the teaching environment directly affects teaching and learning.

 

Does it though?

 

My parents' generation (in their 60's) had far worse environments to work in than any modern school, yet it's widely regarded that the standard of education has plummeted over the last 20 to 30 years.

[localzuk]

Does it though?

 

My parents' generation (in their 60's) had far worse environments to work in than any modern school, yet it's widely regarded that the standard of education has plummeted over the last 20 to 30 years.

 

By who? Any actual academic evidence to support that widely held belief? Or is it like religion - requires faith? I've not seen any evidence from academic sources showing a fall in standards. All I see is daily mail articles saying 'in our day!!!' over and over...

[SpuffMonkey]

Have a thought for us - we're supposedly becoming an academy in September - in the morning we were "Unaffected", by the evening we were "Up for discussion". I'm up to my ears in the changes we need to do - and now we're not even sure its happening - jeez!

[jsnetman]

Just got the official email form the LEA, BSF cancelled no further meetings going to be held regarding BSF. North Tyneside.

[Andycat]

I don't think "Stopped" means "cancelled" in all cases though. Just paused in a way. Or so our borough thinks.

[jsnetman]

In the email it states BSF cancelled and will look forward to new investment initiatives by the current government.

[RobW]

Academic evidence would say that wouldn't it? Kids are taught completely differently nowadays - they pass more exams (albeit containing lots of coursework) but, in my opinion, know less. It's a case of pass the exam/module then forget it. It may be perception but the general opinion is that standards have gone down especially in the corporate world that wants a competent and able workforce. As an aside I know somebody who recently went on an educational visit to Japan and they use virtually no IT in teaching, just "chalk, talk & discuss" - that holds them back doesn't it??

[PeteM]

The problem with BSF was - it wasted money.

 

All our PCs are capable of performing whatever is needed of them, yet when BSF take ofer we throw them out. Why? We just spent 50k on machines this year. That's the problem.

 

The CDT department have 3 £10,000 lathes things. Under BSF they get thrown out and replaced with something else just so it's supported by the company taking over.

 

Waste, is what BSF was doing. Waste is what the new government have to erradicate. That's what they're doing.

 

Any new government would be faced with the same situation we're in, and the 'biggest school build since the Victorian era' isn't what we can afford as a nation right now.

 

I've been reliably informed that when we move to the new school (2 becoming 1 big ALC under BSF) that the IT contractor will be taking our old equipment and using what is fit for purpose in the new school. It will not all be shiny new equipment but (I'm guessing) a mix of old and new.

[simpsonj]

Does anyone think this might cause a little bit of consternation amongst schools with regard to a level playing field? As an example, take a town that has 4 schools in close proximity to each other, one of them gets the BSF treatment and has super new buildings, uptodate technology and all the rest, how can that have a positive impact on the other three schools? I know it isn't always a level playing field at the best of times, but it strikes me that should BSF be cancelled, any money that was being pumped into that county for BSF should be split evenly between the schools. But I am most likely being super naive...

[localzuk]

Academic evidence would say that wouldn't it? Kids are taught completely differently nowadays - they pass more exams (albeit containing lots of coursework) but, in my opinion, know less. It's a case of pass the exam/module then forget it. It may be perception but the general opinion is that standards have gone down especially in the corporate world that wants a competent and able workforce. As an aside I know somebody who recently went on an educational visit to Japan and they use virtually no IT in teaching, just "chalk, talk & discuss" - that holds them back doesn't it??

 

So you say that people doing independent research would still come back with 'everything's peachy'? I doubt that, very much. You seem to think the govt somehow controls the UK academic community.

 

So, once again you're simply talking of 'perception' driven by daily mail like articles. I want evidence. Facts, figures, etc...

[AyatollahPies]

By who? Any actual academic evidence to support that widely held belief? Or is it like religion - requires faith? I've not seen any evidence from academic sources showing a fall in standards. All I see is daily mail articles saying 'in our day!!!' over and over...

 

Daily Wail not in sight. I imagine you'll feel at home reading the Guardian link. :-)

 

Independent article where Ed Balls states that the problems lay beyond the classroom.

Computers blamed as reading standards slump - Education News, Education - The Independent

 

Guardian article? No way man. The lefties can't think this too!

Falling school standards: Can students cope at University? | Education | guardian.co.uk

 

Times article about a report by Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD).

British pupils falling in world rankings - Times Online

 

BBC article about a report by Reform (Right Wingers so BEWARE!!!!!!!!!!)

BBC NEWS | UK | Education | Maths exams 'have become easier'

 

Belfast Telegraph referencing Doctor Bernard Lamb & Professor Loreto Todd (Academics)

How falling standards of English are forcing colleges into drastic action - Education, News - Belfasttelegraph.co.uk

 

Royal Society of Chemistry

Science pupils couldn't handle O-level questions in online competition

 

Research by Michael Shayer, professor of applied psychology at King's College, University of London

Children are less able than they used to be | Education | The Guardian

 

A few statements by academics in amonst those, so will that do? You say you haven't seen any evidence but I imagine that is because you haven't looked.

 

Ask whoever enters the assessment data into the schools MIS about the "massaging of grade boundaries" over recent years.

 

For a laugh, you could even have a search through the TES forums.

[localzuk]

Much appreciated. I will see if I can dig out some of the studies discussed in some of those articles. Will be an interesting read. (As you can probably tell, I don't take media articles at face value).

[mthomas08]

I dont think its school standards that have changed, although schools have to deal with much more - social workers etc. I think its more like the life they have. It is so much easier, my generation was on the edge. We had it a bit harder, the generation growing up now have it easier with benefits etc.

 

As for the Uni standards I dont think tests are getting easier I just think the availability of information is a lot easier and people dont have to wait for a book to sign out or carry 10 books around all day. They logon a PC and connect to the internet. There we go, they still spend hours and hours studying. A lot have part time jobs, then study and have 1 day every now and then for fun. And with CTRL + F they can usually find something much easier

 

As for reading issues, the kids have mobiles and send texts which the short chat all the time and they do it because its simply easier and lazy.

 

But then this is a BSF discussion not about what the kids are doing

[Hecate]

When I read arguments about standards and dumbing down I often wonder if way back whenever there were worries about the newfangled printing press which made it so much easier to distribute written material that that the ability to memorise would decline

[AyatollahPies]

Much appreciated. I will see if I can dig out some of the studies discussed in some of those articles. Will be an interesting read. (As you can probably tell, I don't take media articles at face value).

 

I did find some articles with the opposing view too. I just think BSF was being used as a cloak to hide the real issues that are affecting education. I agree that a nice new building is more welcoming than a dilapidated one, but it's the curriculum and the standard of the teaching of it, that surely makes all the difference?

[localzuk]

I did find some articles with the opposing view too. I just think BSF was being used as a cloak to hide the real issues that are affecting education. I agree that a nice new building is more welcoming than a dilapidated one, but it's the curriculum and the standard of the teaching of it, that surely makes all the difference?

 

It isn't an either/or situation. It is a very complex puzzle, and buildings are one of the pieces. The BSF building program tied in nicely with the government's environmental plans also (reduced energy consumption in new buildings).

[PiqueABoo]

It is a very complex puzzle

 

Prove it ;b New-style Academies has prompted more scrutiny of old-style Academies some of which have shiny buildings and AFAIK there's no clear picture on whether they have done anything to improve attainment. As ever we're stuck with trying to compare Apples to Oranges. Same applies to the school exams I took where amongst other things, your grade reflected your performance *relative* to everyone else, and the shape of exams now. My experience (you can't argue with it): I've encountered plenty of the next generation with degrees who I instinctively think are too thick to have one, as in I'm ::gobsmacked:: to find out they have. Dunno, possibly a lot more spoon-feeding going on now, whereas possession of a degree used to be a good indicator of ability to research and think independently.

 

Managed services are viable when they can use economies of scale

 

Yup, this is a no-brainer - it's just a case of where you draw the "consistency" line i.e. the trade off between efficient managability and uniqueness. Now that BSF is mostly done for I'm hoping more people will be less defensive and stop massively over-selling the benefits of something that's rarely genuinely innovative about their Windows systems and perhaps focus instead on some serious, economical best practices, where amongst other things "economical" definitely includes accounting for your time and energy.

[mrforgetful]

I've been reliably informed that when we move to the new school (2 becoming 1 big ALC under BSF) that the IT contractor will be taking our old equipment and using what is fit for purpose in the new school. It will not all be shiny new equipment but (I'm guessing) a mix of old and new.

 

Ours would hav erequired us to pay them a fee for each device they took, so made more sense to throw them.

[timzim]

But then this is a BSF discussion not about what the kids are doing

 

...and of course the two are not linked in any way....