Schools 'break law' on teaching assistants

[dwhyte85]

Well said

[localzuk]

Completely agree! I must admit I find the 'teacher bashing' on here gets to a ridiculous level at times, the majority of us work in schools and these people are our collegues, we should actually be working together for the good of the the school/children/community.

 

You might find the teacher bashing ridiculous, but it depends very much on the school you work in and the teachers you work with. You can't judge people on here based on their views of teachers - as you do not work in their schools and do not have the treatment that they have.

 

It is very difficult to think 'we work as a community' when those around you treat you badly...

[witch]

To be honest, I wouldn't be happy with with someone teaching any child without the training or qualifications to do it. It wouldn't happen in any other job. However, with enough life experience you can have a non qualified teacher do a good job of teaching a class.

 

I wasnt suggesting that they didnt have the training - my point was that they need to have had the TEACHER training, alongside a willingness to learn and a demonstrated ability to study (access course? HLTA status?). What they shouldn't need is a nebulous degree in something completely unrelated. It is a ridiculous barrier to those who could make very good teachers.

If schools can't afford more teachers, then at least they could put their TAs through HLTA training - this is fairly rigourous and certainly makes a TA more ready to take a class - but NOT on a regular basis.

[penfold]

I wasnt suggesting that they didnt have the training - my point was that they need to have had the TEACHER training, alongside a willingness to learn and a demonstrated ability to study (access course? HLTA status?). What they shouldn't need is a nebulous degree in something completely unrelated. It is a ridiculous barrier to those who could make very good teachers.

If schools can't afford more teachers, then at least they could put their TAs through HLTA training - this is fairly rigourous and certainly makes a TA more ready to take a class - but NOT on a regular basis.

 

Sorry Witch I wasn't having a go at you. I was just trying to say that you shouldn't have someone employed who isn't capable of doing their job after being given the appropriate training and support. But I believe this for any job. I dont really get all this teacher bashing when thats not what the article was about and I feel it's unrelated and un-nessessary.

[penfold]

You might find the teacher bashing ridiculous, but it depends very much on the school you work in and the teachers you work with. You can't judge people on here based on their views of teachers - as you do not work in their schools and do not have the treatment that they have.

 

It is very difficult to think 'we work as a community' when those around you treat you badly...

 

But this isn't a thread about how you are treated by teachers. If you have found yourself treated with a lack of respect then I feel for you - I've been there. But I have also worked with people were I have felt like a valued member of staff. I find that it is more to do with the person than the job. But the point raised was using unqualified staff to teach, lets not go down the route lots of threads take please.

[Guest Guest]

I wasnt suggesting that they didnt have the training - my point was that they need to have had the TEACHER training, alongside a willingness to learn and a demonstrated ability to study (access course? HLTA status?). What they shouldn't need is a nebulous degree in something completely unrelated. It is a ridiculous barrier to those who could make very good teachers.

If schools can't afford more teachers, then at least they could put their TAs through HLTA training - this is fairly rigourous and certainly makes a TA more ready to take a class - but NOT on a regular basis.

 

Totally agree, othewise the logical conclusion is that any man off the street could be a teacher...

 

Obviously teachers need to be educated to some standard but the best teachers ive came accross are the ones who didnt go straight into a degree and then into teaching. Is this because they have alot more life experiance having actually left "school" during their life?... But it certainly does say that degrees arn't the be all...

[localzuk]

But this isn't a thread about how you are treated by teachers. If you have found yourself treated with a lack of respect then I feel for you - I've been there. But I have also worked with people were I have felt like a valued member of staff. I find that it is more to do with the person than the job. But the point raised was using unqualified staff to teach, lets not go down the route lots of threads take please.

 

The point was a part of this thread - as someone else brought up the fact that teachers hardly ever get kicked out of the profession. So the fact that teaching assistants are taking classes goes well with bad teachers teaching lessons. The fact that teachers get paid a lot, to the extent where schools feel that financially they can't afford as many teachers and use TAs, combines nicely too.

 

So, my comment saying WHY some people 'teacher bash' is simply to point out that people who don't have those issues shouldn't judge those who do.

[contink]

Teachers are on TOO HIGH a wage for what they do. Not one teacher I knows does marking in the holidays, not one. I know ~400 teachers over 5 schools, and I have asked around 3/4 of them what do they do in the holidays? The main bulk of answers were "go away with the spouse", "relax", "do something I enjoy", not ONE said they do marking.

I know Witch has already provided something of a response to this but just to provide a few examples of teachers who do...

 

I did a teacher training degree, left early for various reasons but as a result of that, my wife being a teacher and my job in four primaries, I see a broad cross section of teachers either as friends, colleagues of my wife, or within my schools. Anyway, the bottom line is that I've seen plenty of examples of jobsworths who down tools at 3:30pm and who do minimal marking, avoid work, etc... BUT I've found they are the exception rather than the rule. Almost all of my wifes colleagues (bar one who shall remain nameless) are very hard working, spend way past sensible hours planning, marking and generating resources and dare I say it... their job.

 

Same goes for many of the staff I see in my primary schools... In all seriousness, I see Primary school teachers as requiring considerable skills in a very wide range of subjects, and teaching. Resources are often self-generated and with an increasing reliance on IT in a climate of cuts the tools they are given are often sub-standard and rarely the best option but expected to use it better than children who have all the time in the world to practice and learn the hard way.

 

 

Coming back on topic, thankfully most of my schools don't abuse TA's or me for that matter as unpaid teachers... It's pretty sad to see many others do though..

[alan-d]

I was afraid that this was going to tempt the teacher bashers out of hiding.

 

The fact is, going back to he original subject, that teachers are not to blame (pay negotiations aside) for TAs or other support staff being used to teach classes unaided by a qualified teacher being present. Nor is it the fault of HTs or SMT who are trying to continue to provide a service with a small budget. The problem is, as usual, the lack of funding from the government purse. Unless HTs can cover the cost of a full compliment of qualified teachers they are left with little choice but to use TAs. The fact that support staff are poorly represented etc makes it an easy fix for which the government both past and present are willing to turn a blind eye to because it suits them.

 

Give Teachers a break - do you honestly think they like seeing a post that they are fully qualified and experienced to fill being filled by an unqualified TA just because they are cheaper to employ? Do you not think that TAs put in that position may resent being asked to do the job at a fraction of the cost of a Qualified Teacher?

 

Until the financial loophole is closed then this is going to be a never ending argument.

[NikChillin]

I am actually of the belief that good teachers are born, not made, and teacher training gives them those little strategies and wrinkles that help them do their job. On the same note, I have never understood why people can not go into teaching later in life, without a degree. Careful selection, good support and rigorous training would produce good teachers.

 

I agree, why don't they take older experienced persons who are specialists in their field into the teaching profession although they should have a teaching qualification rather than a degree. Isn't it better for the students to be taught a subject by someone who knows what they are talking about?

[Guest Guest]

I agree, why don't they take older experienced persons who are specialists in their field into the teaching profession although they should have a teaching qualification rather than a degree. Isn't it better for the students to be taught a subject by someone who knows what they are talking about?

 

But that would throw the education system into chaos; school would no longer be only a means to pass an exam but an education.

[CAM]

Probably throwing a spanner here, why not make teaching staff work the 9-5 that support staff do? Well, 9-5 shuffled forwards a bit. That way they will get extra time and focus better on marking if they don't leave work until later in the day.

 

I know some stay later but not all. Time to standardise?

 

And on other notes, I am support staff but I'd jump at the chance to take a lesson for a bit of experience in what I am meant to support.

[JPS]

Police constables and fire fighters have slightly higher risk jobs though... Police are regularly involved in altercations, have to deal with drug users (and their associated needles etc...) and the like. Fire fighters have to deal with fires, floods, etc... A lot more dangerous than the average teaching job.

 

Teaching is a well paid career, whatever anyone says, and anyone who complains about it needs to wake up to the real world where most people don't get such good pay, pensions, or holidays - regardless of having a degree or not.

 

Teaching is not well paid. (Not picking on just you localzuk, but yours was the post that agitated me enough to respond) I dont think you guys are totally aware of what goes on in the classroom and wandering in to replace a faulty mouse in 5 minutes does not give you a fair insight either.

 

When I was young both my parents were teachers and I remember them having to keep their own accounts down to the penny to ensure they didnt get in trouble.

 

Teaching is bl**dy hard work, I trained and was deemed to be quite effective in the classroom and I didnt complete my course(my decision). I was in school by 7am and out at 6.30. Had dinner and was straight into bed. If you have 5 lessons in a day thats the best part of 5 hours 'performing' to an audience of 30 children each time. Its no wonder that teachers are one of the professions that suffers from shortest life expectancy.

 

Another annoying thing is when people presume that teachers get 13 weeks holiday. They dont! They get 13 weeks 'non-contact time'. They do have some time off but not what people think. They also work at weekends, its not for fun, they have to in order to get prepped for the following week. When it comes to marking exams, some are marking 200 papers for just one year group! There are tight deadlines and this cant be just 'left to tomorrow'.

 

I now have a supportive 'non-teaching' role in school and have done since quiting my training. In the past I have taken on some teaching (ICT Functional Skills) because I enjoy it but this only meant teaching for one lesson in any one day, nothing like what a teacher does.

 

Its also worth noting that there isnt a great difference in pay from an NQT and a teacher with a few years experience - certainly not enough to affect the decision of a recruiting panel. Without any responsibility it takes an NQT 6 years to earn approx 28k (excluding london weighting). In less time than that I have increased my salary by far more by working in an IT background!

 

Its criminal that schools are misusing TAs/LSAs/other support staff. They earn even less and they arent trained to do the job. Can you imagine being expected to do a days teaching? In a subject you have no/little knowledge of and complete the work you should be doing, because that is what is happening!

 

My lunch break has drawn to a close so must my rant!

[JPS]

I can tell you now that there are 3 incompetent teachers in my school. out of a teaching staff of 20, thats pretty atrocious. In another school I support, there are 7, out of 50. The fact that there have been complaints and they have been met with "we are stuck with the teacher and can only remove them if a disciplinary issue arises" is bull, if someone is incompetent, get rid of them, its that simple, and it DOES happen in other industries.

 

Nephilim, an expert on what makes an incompetent teacher??

[featured_spectre]

I have sat through there lessons in the ICT suites. The facts are this:

 

They cannot control the class - even the best behaved of pupils (in other lessons) misbehave for these members of staff

They do not deliver the content of the lesson effectively. To quote one who was in here no more than 2 hours ago "Here is the textbook, copy it onto word and rewrite it". How is that effective teaching?!

They lack authority within the class room, pupils that rarely back chat, do so constantly with them, and the ones who usually back chat are worse than usual.

 

It happens SOLELY to these 3 teachers and no others, and it happens across the year groups. Coincidence? I think not

[localzuk]

Its also worth noting that there isnt a great difference in pay from an NQT and a teacher with a few years experience - certainly not enough to affect the decision of a recruiting panel. Without any responsibility it takes an NQT 6 years to earn approx 28k (excluding london weighting). In less time than that I have increased my salary by far more by working in an IT background!!

 

Not going to argue on most of your comments, as I too grew up with a teacher parent - so now full well what the working hours are like, and what holiday they get.

 

I will point out that your numbers are wrong here though. Starting teacher pay is currently £21,102. After 5 years, they will then be on £30,842. (ie. year 1 is £21,102, year 2 goes up to £22,772 etc...).

[penfold]

Teaching is not well paid. (Not picking on just you localzuk, but yours was the post that agitated me enough to respond)

 

Its also worth noting that there isnt a great difference in pay from an NQT and a teacher with a few years experience - certainly not enough to affect the decision of a recruiting panel. Without any responsibility it takes an NQT 6 years to earn approx 28k (excluding london weighting). In less time than that I have increased my salary by far more by working in an IT background!

 

We are going to have to agree to disagree, I still think teaching is well paid. And being able to increase your pay nearly 10k without changing your job drastically or moving from one employer to another is still pretty good. In all of my jobs that I have been in, the most I could have gone up is 5k without a completely different job.

 

And I would like to point out that there were quite a few things that you listed which we all do in our jobs, they aren't just limited to teaching. And no it's not very nice when people are looking from the outside in and assume your job is easy. But for every hard worker, there is also a lazy worker - this is true for all job not just teaching or working in a school in general.

[JPS]

Not going to argue on most of your comments, as I too grew up with a teacher parent - so now full well what the working hours are like, and what holiday they get.

 

I will point out that your numbers are wrong here though. Starting teacher pay is currently £21,102. After 5 years, they will then be on £30,842. (ie. year 1 is £21,102, year 2 goes up to £22,772 etc...).

 

Apologies, my figures are not quite up to date.

[AngryTechnician]

I know of a examples of both the good and bad sides of the untrained TA issue at my previous school.

 

On the bad side, when rarely cover came in, almost all support staff (even the receptionists) were being drafted in to do cover. IT staff were the only ones exempted as we had considerable autonomy (and the ear of the Deputy Head) and argued that if we were covering and a critical system went down, it would cause a much bigger problem. It was purely to avoid having to pay for supply teachers, and was generally resented not only by both the support staff, but by the teachers themselves in some cases. The school already forced departments organising trips to bump up the cost to parents in order to cover the cost of a supply teacher - then the school would send in someone from support staff and pocket the cash.

 

However, one of my friends at the school is employed as a member of support staff, but has been routinely teaching classes for many years as an untrained teacher, with no degree. She gets good results (better than some of her trained colleagues), and it suits her well as she is paid extra for her teaching role. Last year she began studying for her first degree at OU and plans to go on to teacher training, but for now, the school is breaking the rules. In this case, however, I think it does work well for all involved.

[rad]

I am not aware of any TA's at our school teaching, although must agree that there is lack of training in dealing with situations that you are sometimes faced when in school environments. I have thought of this myself and for someone who is new into education employment you do have to eat your words half the time.

 

I would like to add that some teachers are not yet teachers. Schools employ GTP's and PGCE students. The latter are a little more experienced with handling situations. I would like to add though that the GTP students only have to have a term supervising lessons before taking on classes of their own, sometimes in a field they are learning as quickly as the students they are teaching.

 

As to their pay, I am happy getting home from work and been able to do what I want to do, not having to spend the evening marking, planning and replying to emails. Yes the teachers do get time off during the holidays, but when speaking to an ICT teacher who during the October H/T had something like 4 classes of GCSE work = 100 students to mark plus other key stage 3 classes to mark all before they returned in November. Sometimes its not a jolly life.

[witch]

I am very supportive of teachers and yes, I do believe that 'performing' in front of a class is exhausting and they do a great deal of work outside the classroom. /I believe that teachers 'burn out' and they should be encouraged to move out of direct teaching once this has begun to happen. (then again, that's performance management, isnt it?)

But I do get tired of those whose only work or family life experience is of teaching somehow implying that those in other jobs don't do so many hours and don't work as hard. We do. They do seem to think that everyone else works a standard 37.5 hour week and only they do extra in their own time.

I overheard a friend of mine, who is a hard working teacher, saying to another friend that she worked a 60-odd hour week in term-time. My friend, who is a sales manager, turned to her, deadpan, and said "I work a 60 hour week the whole year round"

Which he does. As do a lot of us.