Do we really need products like RM Connect or CSE ?

[Richard_Finnigan]

They seem to be very expensive and I would have thought that the tools available in Windows Server should allow a netword administrator to create locked down desktops and folders with applications in them.

 

As far as I can see that's all we seem to be getting from CSE.

 

I'll bet this question has been asked before.

[localzuk]

See this can of petrol? You've just thrown a match into it...

 

This question is much like 'Mac vs PC vs Linux', 'vim vs emacs' or 'Ford vs GM'...

[wesleyw]

RM and CSE aren't needed but do help to create a system that is very easy for techs to administer freeing up time for other duties. I've been employed at my last two posts to remove RM connect 2.4 and RM CC3 so from my point of view I don't like them much they are very useful for lots of techs on here though, they'll be commenting soon I'll wager

 

 

 

Wes

[irsprint84]

I had CSE they were good serverwise and the engineer I had who came out was very good but if you know how to do Vanilla can be done easily yourself

[zag]

No they are not needed, only useful for people who don't understand group policies I reckon

[danrhodes]

No they are not needed, only useful for people who don't understand group policies I reckon

 

I agree Zag, that's all I'm saying, I think localz has it in one, do we really need this can of worms to be opended again, it will only end in tears!

 

D

[webman]

*sigh* Here we go again... Very disappointed with the narrow-minded attitude shown by zag.

[danrhodes]

Vanialla is so much better and usually cheaper, surely with the economy as it is if RM, CSE or any other company can't provide a service at a price that is around the same as vanilla how can it be justified?

[localzuk]

Vanialla is so much better and usually cheaper, surely with the economy as it is if RM, CSE or any other company can't provide a service at a price that is around the same as vanilla how can it be justified?

 

In the same way you were trying to say that using Windows rather than Linux in a school network makes sense. ie. You gain technician time etc... Supposedly anyway

[pete]

In the same way you were trying to say that using Windows rather than Linux in a school network makes sense. ie. You gain technician time etc... Supposedly anyway

 

Well, until you install anything by Adobe, then it's a crapshoot.

[danrhodes]

I've worked on both system's and I can say from experience that I prefer working on a vanilla network.

 

From my experience working on a RM network I found that it removed you from the cutting edge, work on a RM network for any length of time and your going to find it very difficult when you move to a different job that has a vanilla network!

 

What im trying to say is that I think working on a RM or CSE type of network is just dumbing down your skills, because you don't have to do the regular jobs such as AD and GP which would be normal practice on a vanilla network.

 

*hides ready for the barrage of angry replys*

 

D

[Hightower]

I suppose the question is, would it be more cost efficient to pay for a tool to help manage the network so your staff can use the additional time to develop tools to better benefit teaching and learning.

 

There's a lot of good folk on here that use the likes of CC3 through choice, because they can then use the additional time to create super websites, addons for Moodle, and other things that will benefit the school. Take webman for instance (sorry webman) - he's a legend, and I'm sure he could easily manage a Vanilla network with a blind fold and arms tied behind his back. The thing is, he's quite handy with a bit of code so he is, so would his time not be better spent creating something that the school could really use (like a flamethrower!) instead of sat doing stuff that RM does automatically.

 

We're CC3 here, but think we will be Vanilla in a year or so. The reason being, we simply can't afford to upgrade to CC4 (which is pretty much required from when M$ pull the XP licencing next year!). At times RM does my wick in, but I must admit I currently have time to do nice things such as research and such. I'm not sure I will be able to say the same when we go Vanilla.

[zag]

Yes I also moved away from a "managed" network when I first started. Was a lot of work to migrate to a Vanilla network but I learned a lot and never looked back.

 

Its saved our school around £50,000 in the 6 years since I did it.

 

No difference to the end user and I feel much more in control.

 

Gotta be happy with that

[webman]

danrhodes: Having RM take away a lot of fiddling, it leaves us extra time for development and implementing Linux solutions and other nice ideas, as well as needing less tech staff. Saves us money and time and headaches. YMMV.

[irsprint84]

I suppose the question is, would it be more cost efficient to pay for a tool to help manage the network so your staff can use the additional time to develop tools to better benefit teaching and learning.

 

There's a lot of good folk on here that use the likes of CC3 through choice, because they can then use the additional time to create super websites, addons for Moodle, and other things that will benefit the school. Take webman for instance (sorry webman) - he's a legend, and I'm sure he could easily manage a Vanilla network with a blind fold and arms tied behind his back. The thing is, he's quite handy with a bit of code so he is, so would his time not be better spent creating something that the school could really use (like a flamethrower!) instead of sat doing stuff that RM does automatically.

 

We're CC3 here, but think we will be Vanilla in a year or so. The reason being, we simply can't afford to upgrade to CC4 (which is pretty much required from when M$ pull the XP licencing next year!). At times RM does my wick in, but I must admit I currently have time to do nice things such as research and such. I'm not sure I will be able to say the same when we go Vanilla.

 

The same with my old Network Manager he could out gun me any day on servers and the network there was CC3 but I moved up to a Network Manager somewhere else and moved from CSE to Vanilla. I think the problem arises when one company and screw you over for a full upgrade/ modules when I can go and find several solutions for free plus I ve had a few niggles with my new network but I had technet and 1000s of other forums to find a solution but with RM you wont have as many (Though RM do know there way around)

[Hightower]

but with RM you wont have as many

 

Most, if not all, technet articles apply to RM networks still. They are just Vanilla networks with a few extra tools installed, so anything you encounter on a Vanilla network could be encountered on an RM network. So I suppose you have more support with RM because you have technet and the RM knowledge base, where as with a Vanilla network you just have technet (obviously excluding other help sources such as forums etc as they too apply to both types of networks.)

[DarrenM]

We run a vanilla system here and I think it attracts better IT staff. Our techs know they can do time here and move on to a business where as when we had RM they would find it harder to move out of schools.

[irsprint84]

We run a vanilla system here and I think it attracts better IT staff. Our techs know they can do time here and move on to a business where as when we had RM they would find it harder to move out of schools.

 

You do need to think about your future but also about whats best for the school it took me alot of time to move to Vanilla and I m happy I ve done so but other systems might fair better for other schools

[Hightower]

I don't like these comments about 'attracting better IT staff with a Vanilla network'. Yes, some schools use management tools because they don't have enough staff, or skilled staff (and just expect the ICT Co-ordinator to do things). The fact of the matter is a lot of members on this forum use the likes of CC3, but it doesn't mean their skillset is limited because of this. In fact, a lot of people from the 'corporate' side of things that use Vanilla networks are stumbling on this site with solutions to their very problems. And who solved their problem? A lowly CC3 technician who hasn't got a clue.

 

Time some people opened their minds a little I think....

[FragglePete]

We use CSE, and a few months ago we sat down and seriously considered going Vanilla for when we roll out Windows 7 this September. We listed all the pros and cons of both and for the time being have decided to stick with CSE as the administration tools are very good (when they work!). However, we have hidden CSE from the User in Windows 7.

 

The three biggest Pros for us where the following:

 

1. Application Deployment - Uses the Prism Suite wrapped around their own tools; works very well and we can easily deploy apps to machines very quickly.

2. Start Menu Creation - We've ditched using the CSE Workspace system but use it to build the Start Menu instead. Works well; built our own GPO's to lock down the System. We can control what Apps and Printers are available not just on a machine by machine basis but by a user by user basis also.

3. Recovery Manager - An implementation of Shadow Copy which backs up everytime they save a file previous versions to a seperate server. Users have the ability to restore previous versions of files instantly by themselves and saves a lot of time in the classroom when they 'accidentally' delete a folder or files.

 

We had to look at how else we could do these three main things without CSE, and as I said, when it works the above does make our life a lot easier but we still administer the network using traditional methods with AD which we also do for the admin machines as these do not have CSE installed. Costs had to be looked at obtaining any other products which were more expensive with staying with CSE. But, we were having problems with some of their software not working as expected or just buggy. I give them a hard time on regular basis to ensure things get sorted.

 

Also, having the backup of CSE Engineers when things go wrong has always been helpful; I know my stuff but its always nice to have someone else challenge your ideas and suggest other ways of doing things.

 

Pete

[sparkeh]

Is it possible to have deja vu about having deja vu?

 

For a fuller version of my opinions on this just search for any of the hatful of threads on RM vs Vanilla as I am tired of typing the same thing about once a week.

But in summary: CCx != networks for those of limited technical ability and the suggestion is quite offensive to the many skilled techs that do a good job with CCx; no one is able to make definitive statements like "Vanilla is better then CCx" as it depends on the school, its priorities and the tasks it wants it staff to concentrate on.

 

Isn't it time this topic died for good?

[localzuk]

Isn't it time this topic died for good?

 

The topic is likely only ever to die when the whole concept of Windows networks dies... So in about 40 years when the Singularity occurs.

[Hightower]

Isn't it time this topic died for good?

 

I know you are saying it, but I'm not feeling it. I love topics like this, as it gives people the chance to see it from another perspective. People slating RM might not be seeing it from the angle it's intended (myself included), and topics like this allow me to have a more open mind about such subjects. Likewise, RM users may not see Vanilla for what it really is because they are looking at it all wrong.

 

I hope discussions like this never die, because without them we'd all live in a communist state!

[bossman]

@all People with Vanilla networks who think RM is just a dumbed down instrument of torture"

 

I don't envy anyone who has built their own Vanilla network just as we have built our own CC4 network (Just got Windows 7 build sorted) and anyone who is small minded enough to think that people who run RM systems are not up to scratch then they may have to think again.

 

Vanilla systems have as many problems if not more than RM systems but that is not the point as I have stated in the past RM systems (which is a Vanilla network with a management console application) allows webman and myself time to construct other ideals and implement other software i.e. open source software within that framework.

 

I do wish people wouldn't keep bringing this up as it is not very professional of them and it reeks of ego massaging, I don't need to massage my ego as I don't have one, just a damn fine network which has given this school only 8 hours of downtime in all those years (over 8) and allowed the students to excel in many ways using the communications systems and applications which are ever present with the least fuss.

 

When asking the students about what they think about the network their immediate reply is "It just works" and this is the bottom line when your customer is satisfied with the end result this is what matters the most not the system you use.

 

Thank you for listening

[zag]

Yeh I love topics like this, keeps the day interesting and provides a good excuse to talk about our networks

 

One question to all the RM fanboys out there, do you think their pricing and upgrade strategies are good? I've always got the impression that RM are kind of like Capita, keep you locked in so much that you can never leave hence why they charge so much but maybe I'm wrong?