From RM CC3 to who?

[shayes]

Hi,

 

We're looking at alternatives to RM CC3 as they have quoted us an obscene amount for an upgrade to 2 of our servers. We originally wanted to move to CC4, but when the cost equated to nearly £40k we accepted that we might have to wait another year. However, just to upgrade our servers to tide us over for another year will be £25k. So we're looking at moving to another managed provider.

 

We have considered vanilla windows, but we don't really fancy the extra time required to manage the network. We're currently considering Burconix and CSE who are both coming in to give us a demo. Are there any others we should consider?

 

Any feedback would be appreciated, especially from Leicestershire or East Midlands schools.

 

Simon

[maark]

A vanilla solution would be better - you can use Active directory to do a lot of things though you will need a few extras - e.g. scripts to control printers, print auditing software - pcounter or papercut are good and cheap. For a fraction of the price quoted you could get a company in to help you and provide support - we have used a2zcomputers from loughborough before but do nearly all in house now - benefit of standard microsoft setup is that you are not tied to one company.

[Hightower]

We may be going Vanilla too in the not so near future (fingers crossed). When this gets confirmed I plan to work on a project that takes some of the hit out of the management, and develop something similar to the RMMC. Yes RM, this is the one thing you actually got right!

[shayes]

Just to reiterate, we have considered going Vanilla and decided it's not for us. Just wondering what other options there are?

[irsprint84]

CSE used to be with my school dont use their client software! urgh! but generally their server setups are good using Xen server etc.. but I ve found it easier being Vanilla and that was for months by myself because I can go to technet or many places for help instead of relying on one source

[localzuk]

Just to reiterate, we have considered going Vanilla and decided it's not for us. Just wondering what other options there are?

 

Not to keep on about it, but could you say why doing things in a vanilla way is not for you? If you could, it might help people point you in the direction of a suitable product or products to give you the functionality you want, without needing an all encompassing package to do it all for you.

[Edu-IT]

A vanilla solution would be better

Why?

 

Anyway, I've been an end user on a CSE system and didn't find it a very nice experience at all.

 

Another managed solution provider is Viglen.

 

I've sent you a PM also.

 

Not to keep on about it, but could you say why doing things in a vanilla way is not for you? If you could, it might help people point you in the direction of a suitable product or products to give you the functionality you want, without needing an all encompassing package to do it all for you.

See original post:

but we don't really fancy the extra time required to manage the network.

[powdarrmonkey]

We are a vanilla house but with some Burconix middleware to take the stress out. It's a very nice balance, IMHO.

[jsnetman]

A lot of the headache of a vanilla system is setting it up, but done once or twice it's easy peasy. After that there is no real management overhead compared to a managed system. You could buy someone in to do the initial setup.

[localzuk]

but we don't really fancy the extra time required to manage the network.

 

Yeah, that's not really a very detailed explanation. Where is this extra time lost? What tasks do you have to do extra with a vanilla system that you don't with CC3? Is it packaging? Machine imaging? User management? Just wanting to know, as many things can be managed just as easily with vanilla with a few added bits of software...

[CyberDrac]

Slightly off the original topic ... Vanilla can be made much more manageable with the right selection of tools, one which came to light for me recently was by RES Software which gave a very nice method of desktop control, I was quite impressed with the demo which I saw.

[shayes]

To be frank, the reason why we don't want to go vanilla, is because we wouldn't know where to start. I appreciate that there may be various tools that can deliver apps, and printers and such-like, but we'd prefer to have a whole managed solution where everything can be found all in the same place. The other issue is that the change over would require both myself and my network manager working pretty much flat out for the entirety of the summer holidays, which I am neither paid to do nor prepared to do. If there's someone who can do most of the dirty work for us then we'd be much happier.

[localzuk]

To be frank, the reason why we don't want to go vanilla, is because we wouldn't know where to start. I appreciate that there may be various tools that can deliver apps, and printers and such-like, but we'd prefer to have a whole managed solution where everything can be found all in the same place. The other issue is that the change over would require both myself and my network manager working pretty much flat out for the entirety of the summer holidays, which I am neither paid to do nor prepared to do. If there's someone who can do most of the dirty work for us then we'd be much happier.

 

Changing from CC3 to anything will require a large amount of work - every machine will require reimaging, normally a full rebuild of servers etc. Its a full replacement of your network after all.

 

If you're not sure of where to start, then surely getting a company in to do the initial leg work is all you need? Then once its in, they should be able to provide you with support and training? There are a lot more companies that can create you a vanilla network than there are who can provide you with an entirely managed software package.

[jsnetman]

I'm not trying to be off the cuff here but my idea of why schools have RM and other management software is that they don't have a an experienced NM who can manage/install a network. Ok maybe you lack the experience or don't want to commit to the time to install the network, but you will save 10's of thousands with a vanilla system and like I say you can employ a freelance to come set it up, provide initial training and support.

[shayes]

Changing from CC3 to anything will require a large amount of work - every machine will require reimaging, normally a full rebuild of servers etc. Its a full replacement of your network after all.

 

If you're not sure of where to start, then surely getting a company in to do the initial leg work is all you need? Then once its in, they should be able to provide you with support and training? There are a lot more companies that can create you a vanilla network than there are who can provide you with an entirely managed software package.

Which is why I'm asking for people who can provide these services. Jeez, this is hard work.

 

Once again, we would prefer a managed solution to a vanilla setup.

[jsnetman]

I guess you don't want vanilla then

[maark]

managed solutions are just add-ons to vanilla to make it easier to use - have only experienced rm which was ok but very expensive, heard bad reports about cse, ranger was bought out by rm so doubt if it is any better/cheaper

[localzuk]

Ok, my suggestion? Speak to Insight UK - they do whole system installs such as that which I am talking about, but don't do full managed software. Doing this, as jsnetman says, will save you tens of thousands of pounds.

 

Other companies that do similar are Phoenix Software, and Computacenter. All of these companies are a part of the Catalist framework (specifically as a part of the 'Commoditised IT Hardware and Software - Specialist Channel Partners for Software' part.

 

I fear you are not going to get a cheap fully managed package from anywhere, as firstly the transition from CC3 to anything else will cost a fair amount as it will take many manhours of work, then there is the installation of the new system and configuration, and finally training on it. That is simply a very costly process, hence CC4 costing so much.

[shayes]

Ok, my suggestion? Speak to Insight UK - they do whole system installs such as that which I am talking about, but don't do full managed software. Doing this, as jsnetman says, will save you tens of thousands of pounds.

 

Other companies that do similar are Phoenix Software, and Computacenter. All of these companies are a part of the Catalist framework (specifically as a part of the 'Commoditised IT Hardware and Software - Specialist Channel Partners for Software' part.

 

I fear you are not going to get a cheap fully managed package from anywhere, as firstly the transition from CC3 to anything else will cost a fair amount as it will take many manhours of work, then there is the installation of the new system and configuration, and finally training on it. That is simply a very costly process, hence CC4 costing so much.

More like it, thankyou.

[localzuk]

More like it, thankyou.

 

I was merely narrowing down exactly what you wanted. If it had been that you wanted a managed solution because you like the built in packager for example, I'd have suggested something else. But as you want an all encompassing solution, that is what I came up with.

[zag]

The reason most people say go for a Vanilla system is because that's what most of us have done over the last few years.

 

In terms of a fully managed Educational frontend, then RM is pretty much your only option but I wouldn't wish the cost and restrictions on anyone.

 

But any network manager should be able to build a new network in a few weeks. Its not as big a job as you would think.

[shayes]

What about peoples experiences with Burconix?

[Edu-IT]

I'm not trying to be off the cuff here but my idea of why schools have RM and other management software is that they don't have a an experienced NM who can manage/install a network. Ok maybe you lack the experience or don't want to commit to the time to install the network, but you will save 10's of thousands with a vanilla system and like I say you can employ a freelance to come set it up, provide initial training and support.

Cost wise, you might save a few thousand by going vanilla on equipment and licensing, but you'll lose it when it comes to paying somebody to manage it. If you've got a vanilla network then in my opinion you need good working hours (8am - 5pm) with holiday hours too. With a managed system you don't need quite as much time as if there's a major issue you can walk away and leave somebody to dig away at it for you, that's what you're paying for in support fees and generally what you pay to have that to fall back on will be less than what you'd pay for somebody to work these extra hours. Swings and roundabouts!

[localzuk]

Cost wise, you might save a few thousand by going vanilla on equipment and licensing, but you'll lose it when it comes to paying somebody to manage it. If you've got a vanilla network then in my opinion you need good working hours (8am - 5pm) with holiday hours too. With a managed system you don't need quite as much time as if there's a major issue you can walk away and leave somebody to dig away at it for you, that's what you're paying for in support fees and generally what you pay to have that to fall back on will be less than what you'd pay for somebody to work these extra hours. Swings and roundabouts!

 

Sorry but you can get exactly the same level of support from providers of 'vanilla' networks as you can managed suites such as cc3/4 etc... You don't suddenly lose all support options by going vanilla - instead, you get to craft exactly what support you want/need. Our school was installed as a vanilla network in 2003, and until I arrived in 2006 it was managed partly in-house, and partly via a support contract to a local IT firm who did all the major grunt work. The contract involved 48 hours of on-site tech time, and unlimited phone/email support for about £3k a year. It worked well for them too, but it wasn't needed once I took over. If it had been a managed system, the school would've been tied to either continuing support from the company or paying big money to switch to vanilla, ie. not as flexible.

[Edu-IT]

Sorry but you can get exactly the same level of support from providers of 'vanilla' networks as you can managed suites such as cc3/4 etc... You don't suddenly lose all support options by going vanilla - instead, you get to craft exactly what support you want/need. Our school was installed as a vanilla network in 2003, and until I arrived in 2006 it was managed partly in-house, and partly via a support contract to a local IT firm who did all the major grunt work. The contract involved 48 hours of on-site tech time, and unlimited phone/email support for about £3k a year. It worked well for them too, but it wasn't needed once I took over. If it had been a managed system, the school would've been tied to either continuing support from the company or paying big money to switch to vanilla, ie. not as flexible.

Yes, I understand. Sorry I didn't word my post properly.