McKinnon: The longest ever game of pass the parcel

[Ambient]

Slight alteration to your comment - this is a public discussion forum. This is a discussion. As yet, you've not actually provided any arguments *for* his extradition, other than 'he broke the law'.

 

How is being a do-gooder to look at someone's medical conditions, see that he broke British laws, and expect a criminal case to be brought in the UK, rather than in the USA - a country which has a one sided extradition treaty with us.

 

If he walked up to a US citizen in the UK and stabbed them, I would expect him to face trial in the UK, not in the USA. If it was a British citizen, then again, he'd be tried in the UK. If he had a medical condition such as schizophrenia (which might be applicable) then I'd expect it to be taken into consideration during the trial - and the outcome would reflect that. If he had Asperger's and committed this crime, I don't think it would provide any medical reason for his behaviour - Asperger's doesn't make you a violent murderer - it can make you an obsessive person.

 

How does having an expectation of a fair and just criminal justice system hold the country back from progression?

 

Look, you've got issues. You either know someone with Asperger's (or you have it yourself) and you're being over sensitive about it, you're a member of McKinnon's family...or you're in fact McKinnon himself.

 

Please realise (quickly) that i have my own OPINION on what should happen to this guy in terms of his court case. That i think because he technically comitted this crime in America (as the servers he "hacked" into were undoubtably in the US)...he should be tried there...and take the punishment.

 

I think the fact that they're using this UFO story to explain his actions is stupid. Its a lame excuse in my OPINION

 

I dont have to provide any arguments for anything...will you please climb down from your high horse and recpect other peoples opinions!?!?!?!

[localzuk]

Look, you've got issues. You either know someone with Asperger's (or you have it yourself) and you're being over sensitive about it, you're a member of McKinnon's family...or you're in fact McKinnon himself.

 

Please realise (quickly) that i have my own OPINION on what should happen to this guy in terms of his court case. That i think because he technically comitted this crime in America (as the servers he "hacked" into were undoubtably in the US)...he should be tried there...and take the punishment.

 

I think the fact that they're using this UFO story to explain his actions is stupid. Its a lame excuse in my OPINION

 

I dont have to provide any arguments for anything...will you please climb down from your high horse and recpect other peoples opinions!?!?!?!

 

If you're not willing to back up your opinions, why post them on a discussion forum? A place where discussions occur?

[Ambient]

If you're not willing to back up your opinions, why post them on a discussion forum? A place where discussions occur?

 

I didnt intend on "having a discussion" about anything. I WAS JUST STATING MY OPINION!

 

Could you read that?

 

[localzuk]

I didnt intend on "having a discussion" about anything. I WAS JUST STATING MY OPINION!

 

Could you read that?

 

 

Then you should be expected to be called on it!! That's the point of a discussion forum! And no need to be childish with giant text.

[Ambient]

Then you should be expected to be called on it!! That's the point of a discussion forum! And no need to be childish with giant text.

 

Give it a rest will you. We have different opinions...get over it.

Edited January 17, 2010 by witch
bad language

[Socrates]

Arrrgh! That guy from the register just ripped my post THE NEW REPUBLIC: Autistic Hacker Slanders Us All

 

took the swearing and the slander out and re-served it.

 

So, Anyway here's one Geek with Asperger's that thinks McKinnon should swing...

 

"Computer vandal plays the Autism card (again) and wins two month reprieve"

"Stoned, Autistic Hacker, Gary McKinnon has won yet another round in his battle against the United Kingdom Home Secretary's decision to ship him off to Virginia to face a Federal rap of being Stupid in Charge of a Computer..."

 

If this grabs you, please continue reading on the link above - and if you do drop by, please leave a rant...

[mattx]

' McKinnon and his Mummy..........' HA HA HA HA...

 

McKinnon who's supporters claim he is so profoundly affected by his Asperger's Syndrome that not only was he unable to control his actions which lead to him hacking at least 97 times into American computer networks but somehow managed to remain undiagnosed until Cleetus told him he'd look real purdy in Orange.

 

WA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

[featured_spectre]

My brother has aspergers to a similar degree, and he would never be left alone with a PC for precisely this reason. My brother also knows right from wrong.

 

McKinnon should never have been left unsupervised with his condition (something EVERYONE should agree on), and as such he was neglected - so his carer should be charged with neglect, and on top of that, he did commit a crime, he should know right and wrong and know that it was wrong to hack. He can only play the Aspergers card so much before they put him on the plane in a straight jacket.

[Socrates]

Janis Sharp, McKinnon's Mummy isn't talking to me any more for saying horrible things about her Bunnykins (ie introducing some facts into the Debate) .

 

Some of McKinnon's supporters tried to find out where I live, presumably to pay me a visit to discuss things further.

Edited January 17, 2010 by witch

[Socrates]

I have invited them all to debate - but they are a PR campaign, not the Oxford Union, so all they can muster is Duckspeak.

[Batman]

For the record, I don't think it matters if he has aspergers or not, a crime is a crime and should be addressed BUT it does matter that he is treated decently. He's not a mass murderer.

 

Personally I'd like to see him kept in the UK and dealt with under UK law, with his aspergers taken into account as prison is a damaging place and he is more vulnerable in that sense than average joe.

 

It's pig headed and vindictive to say "lock him up and throw away the key", what did he do to you? It seems to me that the US had it's ego dented over this, otherwise it wouldn't be quite the issue it is and that in my mind is unacceptable.

[Socrates]

Well, he isn't and never was going to be locked up for the rest of his life. He'd spend less than 6 months in the US before being repatriated...

[Dos_Box]

Careful,it may be the last day of BETT, but all of us admins and mods are in a restaurant, but we ARE watching, so play nice with each other!

 

Edited January 17, 2010 by Dos_Box

[localzuk]

Well, he isn't and never was going to be locked up for the rest of his life. He'd spend less than 6 months in the US before being repatriated...

 

The problem is this - the US military was caught napping with regards to their security. Due to this, the government has pretty much admitted that they wish to make an example of McKinnon. The charges he faces, when totalled up, come to much longer than 6 months sentence. The crime he committed over here would carry a much less harsh penalty, but the USA have added the word 'terrorism' to it and got everyone whipped up into a frenzy about it.

 

The only reason he could be extradited is due to extradition powers brought in to deal specifically with terrorism. To claim what he did was terrorism would be ridiculous, to say the least. An extradition treaty that removes the ability for the accused to claim Legal Aid for his defence. So, when he gets there, he suddenly needs to spend millions on his defence, just because he's in a different country.

 

Add into this that the treaty was signed *after* he was arrested in the UK under the Computer Misuse Act - where he'd fact 6 months prison, total. Also, an offence which is non-extraditable. He faces a total of 70 years, if he is found guilty and it is sentenced to be served sequentially.

[Socrates]

I forget a bit...

 

what did he do to you?

 

His pr campaign besmirches the public's perception of people like me with Asperger's Syndrome. He infantilises himself and Us by playing his Autistic Get Out of Jail Free card. He makes us look like a joke, objects of pity and targets for condescension from our neurological superiors.

 

More McKinnon Facts:

 

THE NEW REPUBLIC: Autistic Hacker - Stoned, Again

[Socrates]

localzuk,

 

I dealt with the sentencing situation in the post at the other end of the link above.

 

He's looking at about 3 years. And repatriated after (well, as soon as they can get the paperwork done) 16-26 weeks.

 

We went through all this Life in Gitmo with the NatWest3 - who share a pr agent with McKinnon.

 

They ended up getting 37 months - repatriated after 25 weeks - for a multimillion pound theft.

[localzuk]

I forget a bit...

 

what did he do to you?

 

His pr campaign besmirches the public's perception of people like me with Asperger's Syndrome. He infantilises himself and Us by playing his Autistic Get Out of Jail Free card. He makes us look like a joke, objects of pity and targets for condescension from our neurological superiors.

 

More McKinnon Facts:

 

THE NEW REPUBLIC: Autistic Hacker - Stoned, Again

 

Ok, first thing I have to say is that those articles you've linked are some of the worst written pages I've read on the net for some time. Poor structure, poor grammar and just plain difficult to read... However, some of the information within them is good - such as the inclusion of the actual charges, which contain dozens of unsubstantiated claims, variations of the amount of damage done - $700k, $900k etc... what is it? Surely they have a total by now?

 

localzuk,

 

I dealt with the sentencing situation in the post at the other end of the link above.

 

He's looking at about 3 years. And repatriated after (well, as soon as they can get the paperwork done) 16-26 weeks.

 

We went through all this Life in Gitmo with the NatWest3 - who share a pr agent with McKinnon.

 

They ended up getting 37 months - repatriated after 25 weeks - for a multimillion pound theft.

 

This is plainly incorrect. The section of law he is claimed to have broken is Title 18, United States Code, Sections 1030(a)(5)(A) and 2.

 

From that law "© The punishment for an offense under subsection (a) or (b) of this section is—

(1)

(A) a fine under this title or imprisonment for not more than ten years, or both, in the case of an offense under subsection (a)(1) of this section which does not occur after a conviction for another offense under this section, or an attempt to commit an offense punishable under this subparagraph; and

(B) a fine under this title or imprisonment for not more than twenty years, or both, in the case of an offense under subsection (a)(1) of this section which occurs after a conviction for another offense under this section, or an attempt to commit an offense punishable under this subparagraph;"

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/1030.html

 

He is being claimed to have 7 counts of that law having been broken. Reading that law, it states that if he is convicted he would face 10 years maximum per count, plus a fine.

 

So, where are you getting 3 years from? I'd love to know, as the articles you linked simply state these smaller figures without any evidence based in law.

Edited January 16, 2010 by localzuk

[Socrates]

All grammatical reconstructions/corrections are welcome. (Although allow me to do a McKinnon - I am Autistic to the point of being a client of an LDP - so don't get cute about unusual neologisms/behaviour/grammar from me - would you make fun of someone in a wheelchair having trouble negotiating stairs?)

 

And allow me to point out your web reading skills seem to need a little polishing: references to source material are all linked.

 

ie "With the likely three year sentence" is referenced here with the words of the first prosecutor.

 

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9111981/Former_prosecutor_UFO_hack_looked_like_terrorist_attack?taxonomyId=82&pageNumber=2

 

(Also linked to the Wired article that references the Federal sentencing guidelines).

 

But of course if you and Google are the greater authority...

 

And the estimates of damage are from the Indictment... For example at the Weapons Station, a week of downtime for 300 computers, and restricted availability of services for a further 3 weeks was costed by the Yanks at $290,431.

 

This equals $34.58 per computer, per day. Tell me, if your school network got hacked by a stoned, unemployed McKinnon - would you be able to get a better deal for a replacement?

 

Being so au fait with Google I'll leave you to ferret out the details of the discussions about facilitating his speedy repatriation that have already taken place...

[LeMarchand]

Yes, he broke the law, but there are extenuating circumstances. The claims that he 'hacked' are over-emphasised also - he accessed machines which were not protected. His skills were about as advanced as the average 12 year old.

 

I'm pretty sure that I read that he used to be a systems administrator, suggesting that not only was he presumably a bit more advanced than your average "12 year old" but that he seemed to be fairly compos mentis at the time. Strangely, his "Aspergers's" was only diagnosed after his alleged offences were discovered. Still, I guess that more people would have sympathy for that diagnosis than if he tried to hang his crimes on his being stoned at the time.

 

BTW, if he was "only looking for UFO evidence" why was he leaving those bizarre messages/rants?

[PiqueABoo]

Hmm.. can't help wondering how those costs break down, because the way I see it sooner or later (perhaps as a consequence of the bad news delivered by a decent authorized pen-test) they were definitely going to have to spend quite a bit of money. If you take your security seriously there shouldn't be much difference in what you do to those systems when:

 

a) Some Good Guy[tm] tells you they are hopelessly vulnerable and *may* have been compromised in the last couple of years.

 

b) Someone like McK. blunders around enough that you know they have been compromised.

[dwhyte85]

I think this is crazy, i've followed this for ages now (the story, not this thread).

 

I have watched how DarkMarket fraudsters have got away with next to no punishment, probably with e-gold & liberty reserve accounts bursting with laundered funds/sale of illegal goods.

 

Although Gary had compromised the systems did he actually do anything wrong other than point out a clear inability to protect government systems? If it was the case things were deleted they'd of course have a robust data backup procedure, if it was the case he could have read things they could have had permissions set!

 

As I read it... he literally just dialled in, and went to a server UNC and went to the hidden share. Whether or not it was a trap... debatable, I'd imagine it was more a neglectful IT guy...

 

Although he was acting as a blackhat, based on what's said... he was just being a bit annoying rather than malicious. Aspergers or not, this has gone to far - the punishment doesn't fit the crime, IMO at least.

[Socrates]

dwhyte,

 

Your emollient tone has gotten me purring like a kitten. I must leave now. This environment is corrosive to the Iconoclast.

[Socrates]

On second thoughts, one last growl before bedtime:

 

"In fact just 12 days after the attacks that left more than 3000 Americans dead, McKinnon, pursuing his belief that the Yanks had hidden extra-terrestrial beings in the computers at a Naval Munitions Yard, returned just to double check in the corners"

 

Would you grant me, "Annoying and Malicious"?

 

"the Indictment charges that on Sept. 23, 2001, McKinnon again broke into the NWS (Naval Weapons Station) Earle computer network by accessing the previously-installed RemotelyAnywhere software and using the stolen passwords."

 

"During this intrusion into the network, McKinnon allegedly caused approximately $290,431 in damage to NWS Earle by deleting computer files needed to power up some of the computers on the network, deleting computer logs that documented his intrusion into the network, and compromising the security of the network "

Edited January 17, 2010 by Socrates
Edited to add extra Growl

[localzuk]

All grammatical reconstructions/corrections are welcome. (Although allow me to do a McKinnon - I am Autistic to the point of being a client of an LDP - so don't get cute about unusual neologisms/behaviour/grammar from me - would you make fun of someone in a wheelchair having trouble negotiating stairs?)

 

And allow me to point out your web reading skills seem to need a little polishing: references to source material are all linked.

 

Pointing out something is not the same as making fun. The reason I missed some things is down to the structure. It is difficult to follow, that's all I mean. Also, if you are so against McKinnon using his Asperger's as an explanation of his behaviour, then you have no grounds to bring yours up here. It would be hypocritical.

 

ie "With the likely three year sentence" is referenced here with the words of the first prosecutor.

 

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9111981/Former_prosecutor_UFO_hack_looked_like_terrorist_attack?taxonomyId=82&pageNumber=2

 

(Also linked to the Wired article that references the Federal sentencing guidelines).

 

But of course if you and Google are the greater authority...

 

Why must you resort to this sort of childish behaviour. Going on about his 'mummy', making out I know nothing because I point out what the actual law states.

 

Just because someone says he may get 3-5 years does not remove the possibility of a lot longer. The law is clear on it, and the judge is perfectly capable of presenting a sentence up to the 70 years possible.

 

And the estimates of damage are from the Indictment... For example at the Weapons Station, a week of downtime for 300 computers, and restricted availability of services for a further 3 weeks was costed by the Yanks at $290,431.

 

A week of down time for 300 computers. I've had that happen at our school. Ok, it was 200 computers, but those machines were back up and running within 7 days. Backups were available for each type, and they were reimaged with ease, by me alone. ok, the military may have more complex needs but the fact remains, they should have had backups and better security.

 

This equals $34.58 per computer, per day. Tell me, if your school network got hacked by a stoned, unemployed McKinnon - would you be able to get a better deal for a replacement?

 

Why would they need a replacement? Get the backups out...

 

Being so au fait with Google I'll leave you to ferret out the details of the discussions about facilitating his speedy repatriation that have already taken place...

 

The discussion of repatriation has only been brought up as a form of bribery - 'come to the USA admit guilt and you'll get a minimal sentence, which you'll serve most of in the UK. If you don't we'll throw the book at you, and then the bookcase, followed by the library, brick by brick'.

[localzuk]

I'm pretty sure that I read that he used to be a systems administrator, suggesting that not only was he presumably a bit more advanced than your average "12 year old" but that he seemed to be fairly compos mentis at the time. Strangely, his "Aspergers's" was only diagnosed after his alleged offences were discovered. Still, I guess that more people would have sympathy for that diagnosis than if he tried to hang his crimes on his being stoned at the time.

 

BTW, if he was "only looking for UFO evidence" why was he leaving those bizarre messages/rants?

 

The skills he used to access the machines were akin to hacker kiddy skills - UNC paths, with default admin passwords, and remote installing a remote control program. Nothing amazing from what I can see.

 

My guess would be that he thought that leaving the messages would leave some form of 'stop withholding information' message to the US govt. But the only person who could answer that is McKinnon.