EdWhittaker Posted November 13, 2010 Posted November 13, 2010 You see I have a problem with the word cheaper. ok, wrong choice of words, lets say 'less expensive' then. You would have such an uphill battle persuading me that your product was better I'm afraid! Despite not knowing anything about nor ever having seen it? Fair enough, if your system aint broke, don't fix it. If it does exactly what you want it to in the way you want it done and you're happy with the cost, then you don't need to change. However, many schools are not happy and are looking for better solutions.
localzuk Posted November 13, 2010 Posted November 13, 2010 You see I have a problem with the word cheaper. Something done on the cheap. That's what the connotations are. How are the cost savings being made. Would I have to sacrifice quality? Would the helpdesk be based in a foreign country? Would money be put into development and testing? Would the product managers be able to keep up with the shifting sands of government requirements? You would have such an uphill battle persuading me that your product was better I'm afraid! As for my being 'comfortable' with what I know. Well yes, I am, and I am not going to apologise for that! At this stage, I am not going to want to waste the 20 years of experience with SIMS that I have by going off to learn a new system - though perhaps it is what I should have done earlier in my career! How are you ensuring best value if you simply use the argument that you're used to your MIS? Not exactly the best way of ensuring best value for your school!
PiqueABoo Posted November 13, 2010 Posted November 13, 2010 (edited) You see I have a problem with the word cheaper. There is a phenomenal amount of money being wee-weed away out of public funds for school MIS. The BECTA swansong report predicts licensing/maintenance at ~£45 million per year, with support adding additional £65 million per year and AFAIK it's mostly for "old rope". The problem the s/w solves just isn't that big - ask anyone with a serious development clue what they could do with a lean/mean team of their choosing for a small fraction of that, say £1 million a year.. you'll get a bunch of variations on "near perfection".. and there's a very good chance it would be. Here's a very relevant BECTA line with my emphasis: In the light of the current financial pressures facing schools and the nation generally we consider that the base cost and its current rate of increase will both be considered unacceptable. It is unacceptable. Problem with efforts for interoperability (and single sign on) so far, it seems to me, is that major players are each trying to get their own solution adopted C'est la vie... it's what the company I worked for wanted when playing standards eons ago, and for all the guff people talk about the lovely open-ess I've seen the same in RFC-land (first time was in the 90s with mail service vendors trying to get SMTP extended their way, not the other lots way). Edited November 13, 2010 by PiqueABoo 2
matt40k Posted November 13, 2010 Posted November 13, 2010 @marshharrier Go buy Phil Neal a Martin and get him to tell you the history of SIMS .net, once he's finished get him to tell you about SMAC, SCRIPT, SAMS, SCAMP etc. Basically all public sector designed MIS systems either go private sector (SIMS) or they die (SMAC etc). Period.
marshharrier Posted November 14, 2010 Posted November 14, 2010 Are you really suggesting that you would trust this (or any) government to build a school's MIS? When you say 'the government' precisely who in the government are you expecting to be tasked with the proposal? This would be the same government that are proposing to share aircraft carriers with other countries and not build any airplanes to put on them would it? Personally I think 'the government' has far too much involvement with school data than is healthy at the moment. How many of you know exactly how much of your personal data is harvested for the School Workfarce Census? Like it or not the Government (most Governments) already hold more information about each of us than anyone else! I don't like it particularly but it is a fact nonetheless. I'd rather this than massive private 'corporates' with other agendas gathering our data! @GeeHubb ... you clearly don't mind how many organisations gather data on you? @marshharrier Go buy Phil Neal a Martin and get him to tell you the history of SIMS .net, once he's finished get him to tell you about SMAC, SCRIPT, SAMS, SCAMP etc. Basically all public sector designed MIS systems either go private sector (SIMS) or they die (SMAC etc). Period. I don't have a problem with the Government hiring out external companies to build the backbone (a la Capita/Serco) but I DO have a problem with those private companies then owning the backbone as is the case now! The Government could easily (right now) contract the building of an MIS backbone from any number of companies who could build it and transfer the ownership to the Gov't for substantially less than £10 million GBP! Sounds like good value to me ....
GREED Posted November 14, 2010 Posted November 14, 2010 Don't think so. I am talking about my experience. In a Primary we don't have the luxury of a dedicated MIS manager to handle the training requirements of the admin staff 'in-house'. I am the nearest we have, but staff training is not my responsibility and I just wouldn't have the time. We don't even have 'in-house' technical support. We rely very heavily on the helpline and training courses. However, we have no budget for SIMS training ...... Do you see what I'm getting at? We can't be the only school (Primary) where this is the case. Actually I got what you were saying in the original post, however I think you have misunderstood my comment.
Guest Entrepreneur Posted December 30, 2010 Posted December 30, 2010 Hello - slightly late to the party - am a entrepreneur thinking of creating a product to address some of your concerns - do you still hold them or have you managed to work the system somehow?
matt40k Posted December 30, 2010 Posted December 30, 2010 Hello - slightly late to the party - am a entrepreneur thinking of creating a product Go on, make me smile. How are you bring something new to our world?
GREED Posted December 30, 2010 Posted December 30, 2010 Go on, make me smile. How are you bring something new to our world? Steve Baggs... The Brand!
Sivadam Posted December 30, 2010 Posted December 30, 2010 (edited) Hello - slightly late to the party - am a entrepreneur thinking of creating a product to address some of your concerns - do you still hold them or have you managed to work the system somehow? No concerns for me! Capita address any faults & evaluate omissions with SIMS on a regular basis! It is obviously impossible to keep up with current demands anyway - especially when DfE move the goalposts all the time and expect the software houses to respond virtually immediately! One wonders at your motives and which company you represent - you have been very quick to ensure that nothing shows on your profile! Edited December 30, 2010 by Sivadam
scholarpack Posted December 30, 2010 Posted December 30, 2010 I think entrepreneur means you represent yourself. But I could be wrong.
EdWhittaker Posted December 30, 2010 Posted December 30, 2010 ... am a entrepreneur thinking of creating a product to address some of your concerns ... As in a complete new MIS or add-on to SIMS? Have you done any research into this market? If not, I suggest you look long and hard before getting involved in this game.
RichH Posted December 30, 2010 Posted December 30, 2010 As in a complete new MIS or add-on to SIMS? Have you done any research into this market? If not, I suggest you look long and hard before getting involved in this game. Surely new entrants to the market can be nothing but supported in an industry that by the looks of it has become rather stagnated by the big players? Bring on the creative destruction!
Sivadam Posted December 30, 2010 Posted December 30, 2010 (edited) Stagnated? One can never say that about SIMS. It takes a great deal of time and effort on my part to keep up with all the innovations. And it is all the new functionality that keeps me still interested in working, after over 4 decades serice in schools, rather than subsiding into retirement. I am always eager to see what is around the corner. Ever seen any demos of SIMS Discover, Alternative Curriculum, Extra Curricular (as per CHQ - the new Capita SIMS Partner)? The first two projects aren't even on general release yet (Spring 2011) and the third is a brand new concept that very few schools yet have access to! As a side thought: it is possible to publicly thank User Posts. I reckon that there should also be a way of doing the opposite, 'Unthanking', or some such appropriate term! Yes - I know! I would get most of 'em. It would be well worth it though. And before anybody gets back at me, this comment is not aimed at RichH for his previous posts! Edited December 30, 2010 by Sivadam
garrysaddington Posted December 31, 2010 Posted December 31, 2010 Stagnated? One can never say that about SIMS. I don't think that was said. There is a clear difference betwen 'the market' and an individual supplier's offering in that market.
GREED Posted December 31, 2010 Posted December 31, 2010 Stuart Baggs Ah god damn it, I was doing that al through the series too!
EdWhittaker Posted December 31, 2010 Posted December 31, 2010 Surely new entrants to the market can be nothing but supported in an industry that by the looks of it has become rather stagnated by the big players? You might be forgiven for thinking that to be the case, but it isn't. You have anti-competitive and restrictive practices on one side and inertia, school politics and personal empire building on the other.
msnealer Posted March 7, 2011 Posted March 7, 2011 hi I feel the same as many here, that the level of MIS systems in education in the UK is extremely low. I have found some good US ones that can be modified to the Uk though. However I have defined specs for my own database system and if others are of a like mind, we could build our own. If anybody is interested please email me or reply here.
matt40k Posted March 7, 2011 Posted March 7, 2011 hi I feel the same as many here, that the level of MIS systems in education in the UK is extremely low. I have found some good US ones that can be modified to the Uk though. Hahaha!!! Serious are you for real? I know I'm not the only one currently laughing, unless your referring to truely free open source, then well... ok, I'll give you that. PS: Suprised Sivadam hasn't posted!
Sivadam Posted March 7, 2011 Posted March 7, 2011 Hahaha!!! Serious are you for real? I know I'm not the only one currently laughing, unless your referring to truely free open source, then well... ok, I'll give you that. PS: Suprised Sivadam hasn't posted! Sivadam has been at Bedford today for the Discover FT Closure meeting! And I'll be laughing even louder than you if anybody thinks that they have a better system than that!
vikpaw Posted March 7, 2011 Posted March 7, 2011 hi I feel the same as many here, that the level of MIS systems in education in the UK is extremely low. I have found some good US ones that can be modified to the Uk though. However I have defined specs for my own database system and if others are of a like mind, we could build our own. If anybody is interested please email me or reply here. I'd be interested to hear which of the US ones you rate. Would be better posting answer in the US MIS forum though..
Sivadam Posted March 7, 2011 Posted March 7, 2011 Take a demo copy of Discover with you Phil! There will be a vast market there for you!
EdWhittaker Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 Another baptism of fire! Poor guy puts his first post on the forum and gets ripped to shreds with sarcasm and pi55 taking (Vikpaw excepted!). 1
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