School MIS Systems

[EdWhittaker]

Are those figures accurate?

 

That works out more expensive that my last school paid for SIMS as a user?

The £5k is a one-off.

Check the numbers here http://www.capita-cs.co.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/SIMS%20Partner%20Brochures%202010/Partner_Management_10.pdf

[GREED]

The £5k is a one-off.

Check the numbers here http://www.capita-cs.co.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/SIMS%20Partner%20Brochures%202010/Partner_Management_10.pdf

 

Thank you

[matt40k]

If you work with the LA, the LA can request the API etc, for a grand total of £0, you can the deploy your work across the LA for a grand total of, £0.

 

If you want to then go outside of the LA, it will cost per school (Access core data + lesson / attendance data £150 per school per year or whatever).

[localzuk]

If you work with the LA, the LA can request the API etc, for a grand total of £0, you can the deploy your work across the LA for a grand total of, £0.

 

If you want to then go outside of the LA, it will cost per school (Access core data + lesson / attendance data £150 per school per year or whatever).

 

How does this help small companies, as was mentioned above. EdWhittaker was talking about competition, not customers.

[matt40k]

How does this help small companies, as was mentioned above. EdWhittaker was talking about competition, not customers.

 

Small companies would work with a school\LA. Makes sense then them developing a tool out of the school environment when it's for schools.

[localzuk]

Small companies would work with a school\LA. Makes sense then them developing a tool out of the school environment when it's for schools.

 

Not sure many schools or LAs would allow that!

[matt40k]

Not sure many schools or LAs would allow that!

 

You would be aiming for schools that have a business arm, such as privates schools that would be asking how much will I make. Hopefully this won't be causing a flood in the market of copy cats.

[PiqueABoo]

noSQL is a long way off from being able to replace Postgres in the MIS environment

 

We got by OK without relational before e.g. I first worked on a bigger, badder, distributed, interoperable MIS system 20 years ago that got by just fine without a proper RDB, and at a glance it fits onto the NoSQL/NoRel category, as apparently does one of IBM's from 1966. That system did eventually go RDB, but not for any pressing technical reasons i.e. the customer's consultants taught them to ask for it on tenders and you had to tick boxes. Naturally performance & resource usage went right through the floor so customers then had to pay for that tickbox by throwing much, much more significant hardware at it.

[scholarpack]

That's a very spurious argument - we got on without a lot of things.. doesn't mean they're not required now. I'd to see how a modern MIS would get by "just fine without a proper RDB" these days...

[localzuk]

That's a very spurious argument - we got on without a lot of things.. doesn't mean they're not required now. I'd to see how a modern MIS would get by "just fine without a proper RDB" these days...

 

Erm. Facebook makes use of Apache Cassandra and Amazon Dynamo. Neither are RDBs... And they have half a billion users.

[scholarpack]

.......but not for the heavy lifting. Talk about misinformation...

[localzuk]

.......but not for the heavy lifting. Talk about misinformation...

 

Evidence of this? It is specifically designed for heavy lifting - ie. dealing with massive datasets...

[scholarpack]

Here?

 

MySQL is the backend data store, Cassandra does inbox stuff. I'm not saying Cassandra doesn't have it's place - I think digg and even twitter is looking/has had at a changeover - but an MIS needs to enforce strict data integrity..something noSQL doesn't prioritise, right? I don't want to get off topic..we're talking about a school MIS here, Facebook is kind of irrelevant.

[Hecate]

I'm a bit surprised to see no references to SIF on this thread. Unless I've completely misunderstood how it works different sub applications could be written by any developer as long as they use the SIF agent defined for the system. The end user could then decide which apps they wanted to use for what - my trips app would pull the pupil data it needed from the core but have it's own set of trip related fields and reports and so on

[matt40k]

I'm a bit surprised to see no references to SIF on this thread. Unless I've completely misunderstood how it works different sub applications could be written by any developer as long as they use the SIF agent defined for the system. The end user could then decide which apps they wanted to use for what - my trips app would pull the pupil data it needed from the core but have it's own set of trip related fields and reports and so on

 

SIF really isn't there yet. In a school you would have to have a SIF server, SIF agents on all the bits, it'll cause more problems. I'm not saying it won't happen in the future. Just for now, MIS API > App > other MIS API

[localzuk]

Here?

 

MySQL is the backend data store, Cassandra does inbox stuff. I'm not saying Cassandra doesn't have it's place - I think digg and even twitter is looking/has had at a changeover - but an MIS needs to enforce strict data integrity..something noSQL doesn't prioritise, right? I don't want to get off topic..we're talking about a school MIS here, Facebook is kind of irrelevant.

 

No, Facebook isn't irrelevant. You attempted to say that noSQL systems couldn't handle the system requirements of things like an MIS. I am trying to tell you that they can, and do! Whatever way you look at it, you are trying to justify limiting a user to a single database backend, rather than allowing the user to be database agnostic by using ORM. Limiting choice is a bad thing for systems like this.

[EdWhittaker]

... different sub applications could be written by any developer as long as they use the SIF agent defined for the system.

 

And as long as they pay hefty licence fee.

[scholarpack]

No, Facebook isn't irrelevant. You attempted to say that noSQL systems couldn't handle the system requirements of things like an MIS. I am trying to tell you that they can, and do! Whatever way you look at it, you are trying to justify limiting a user to a single database backend, rather than allowing the user to be database agnostic by using ORM. Limiting choice is a bad thing for systems like this.

 

I attempted to say.. am attempting to say.. that noSQL has no means of enforcing data integrity like a normal RDB would. That logic has to be done by the application layer. Cassandra places speed and scalability over integrity. That is a bad thing for a data store where scalability issues are not important but enforcing integrity very much is. A school MIS doesn't need to be hugely distributed/large number of users like Facebook, twitter, or whatever other huge site you want to talk about..

[localzuk]

I attempted to say.. am attempting to say.. that noSQL has no means of enforcing data integrity like a normal RDB would. That logic has to be done by the application layer. Cassandra places speed and scalability over integrity. That is a bad thing for a data store where scalability issues are not important but enforcing integrity very much is. A school MIS doesn't need to be hugely distributed/large number of users like Facebook, twitter, or whatever other huge site you want to talk about..

 

Except for the part where school MIS systems now end up being used by parents, governors, pupils, staff etc via MLEs and 'learning platforms'. So, their user numbers are increasing. Your comment regarding application layer is fine - but this could well be done in an intermediary layer... ORM for example. Why do it via the database? You are avoiding the point that you are limiting them to a single technology.

[matt40k]

You are avoiding the point that you are limiting them to a single technology.

 

Which would increase the support costs.

[localzuk]

Which would increase the support costs.

 

Not necessarily. Having a system able to use different software doesn't mean it will use different software. What it means is that those third party clients would be insulated from any backend changes. So, even if the system was designed to work with MySQL and that was the only thing that was supported by the developer, it means that in the future the developer could change to MSSQL, PostgreSQL or any other system without making all the third parties change their systems too!

 

This is my entire point. This is why you use ORM.

[penfold_99]

I'm a bit surprised to see no references to SIF on this thread. Unless I've completely misunderstood how it works different sub applications could be written by any developer as long as they use the SIF agent defined for the system. The end user could then decide which apps they wanted to use for what - my trips app would pull the pupil data it needed from the core but have it's own set of trip related fields and reports and so on

 

I mentioned the use of SIF (Page 3/4) to remove the need to write a whole application in one go plus allow schools to run parallel systems to make sure the application works correctly.

 

SIF allows data to be moved between applications. An application can have SIF support builtin or to can be a third-party product. The biggest advantage of SIF is data's entered once and used many times. You update the data in one systems and the new information to updates on 1 or more application connected via SIF.

[penfold_99]

SIF really isn't there yet.

 

Really?? I would beg to differ as were have developed SIF based applications.

 

As for the SIF infrastructure there are services available to host the infrastructure off site if your LA or RBC doesn't have the SIF infrastructure in place.

 

it'll cause more problems. I'm not saying it won't happen in the future

 

Why don't you ask the 2500 schools in the swgfl, af the future is here an now.

[localzuk]

Really?? I would beg to differ as were have developed SIF based applications.

 

As for the SIF infrastructure there are services available to host the infrastructure off site if your LA or RBC doesn't have the SIF infrastructure in place.

 

 

 

Why don't you ask the 2500 schools in the swgfl, af the future is here an now.

 

I'm in the SWGfL and we have had zero word about SIF. Even the Becta MIS report stated that SIF is not mature enough yet, and that the government needs to start mandating standards of interoperability...

[matt40k]

SIF between applications I've yet to see other then with a big £££ next to it and more work. Besides, why do I want data flowing out of my network into the LA or RBC?? - Did they improve the security, so it's not a like a hub, sending the data to all rather then to those that are authorised?

 

Ok localzuk, I see you point. I was thinking about it from the end-to-end solution provider - such as an LA, but then again, I guess an LA or such would force which bits are used.