School MIS Systems

[powdarrmonkey]

A very expensive one at that.

[SkywOrca]

Just to throw a spark into the fireworks factory, openness of data is pretty much what SIF is all about. SIF could open the door to the ecosystem of applications you suggest, and the security of the data relies only on the additional app's adherence to the SIF data model and the main MIS system's agent quality for importing that data back in. It would mean that any additional app that comes onto the market could interoperate with any of the major MIS systems that offer a SIF agent, and no fiddling about with several different APIs would be required.

 

Welcome to the Systems Interoperability Framework (SIF) Association UK

[Tonyoung]

They actually didn't know what I was talking about! But I found more out about them here (including the fact you have to pay a licence fee to use them). I also discovered the commandreporter tool and that has proved to be very useful

 

Josh if it's for development for your school then there don't appear to be any fees. if you want to develop something for distribution to other schools then you may well need to invest in a developers license. I thinks it's two grand per annum.

[LosOjos]

Josh if it's for development for your school then there don't appear to be any fees. if you want to develop something for distribution to other schools then you may well need to invest in a developers license. I thinks it's two grand per annum.

 

Thanks for that, didn't know about that rule...

 

For now I'm making do with SIMS' ability to export XML files to any apps I write, but that's definitly worth knowing, thanks again

[Arkenstall]

It is fine having an elaborate fully functioning MIS but the real problem I encounter is making the system accessible to staff so that they can easily input data in assessment for learning environment and then use the suitably collated information for analysis of pupil perfomance dialogues. Otherwise the MIS becomes just a housekeeping tool for pupil details.

Both Sims and Integris are capable of this - but have the staff the capacity and skills to really exploit the tools they are given?

[GeneralDreedle]

I'm a bit late coming to this thread but I too worked as a developer in industry for many years (C++, VB, SQL, a bit of Java etc) before working in schools. And many of the thoughts and frustrations here speak my mind.

 

I have several times sat down in beermat design meetings with old mates. The conclusion is that you could nail this product and the whole lucrative market with a small team of maybe 5 people.

 

The problem is getting it into schools. Look at SIMS' (is it 80% marketshare?) origins as a model.

 

You need:

1) A home school to use as sandbox - OK that's probably achievable

2) A local authoritty that will take it on - No chance: they're mostly 3rd rate battery hens

3) selling power/ schmooze ability / graft - No chance: makes me physically shake with rage

 

So number 2 is a systemic block - do you know a LA with those balls?

Number 3 is an personal block but also a common shared profile for software engineers. You can't afford parasites on the team so you need that rare engineer who is also a corrupt smarm merchant. And no ethical values.

 

The solution I think is contained in the reason why the beermat design team meetings always collapsed well before last orders: we always fell out over

SQL Server v MySQL

I always said you want to integrate web parts and Outlook groups so the MS overhead is worth it, but my hardcore mates insisted on full opensourrce.

 

When I look back now I suspect they were right: The solution needs to be totally free and pupils should be able to help out on the development.

You make the money from installation, support, training and lots of bespoke jobs.

 

As I've said I'm an engineer and no salesman but I suspect you sell it to the teachers, not the schools or LAs: the dinosaurs are almost extinct - all that's left in schools in 5 years is those 20 something and 30 something eager beavers (soon to be burnouts!) who love computers.

 

Make it part of some awesome, must-share portal eg: a free national supply teacher agency website.

 

My 2c worth of big picture...someone else can handle the details, meanwhile I'll enjoy my evenings, weekends and holidays.

[Guest MikeBostock]

Absolutely - turning raw data into information and then into Business Intelligence is the way to go. A valuable reporting database will be key tool to provide that 'edge'.

 

This does seem to be the direction that things are moving. Schools will need to do much more with their data in the future than just print lists. We only need to look at two recent changes to predict how things need to go:

1. Changes to Ofsted that will put more onus on schools undertaking systematic self-evaluation using school-level performance data.

2. Pressure on schools to reduce staffing costs. 'Handling' data will not be enough. Data Managers need to be at the hub of managing teachers' research and standardised reporting. In several schools I work with, the 'Data Manager' role is being elevated to a member of the leadership team.

 

School MIS suppliers are investing in more sophisticated data analysis and presentation functions. We will see the results of this at the BETT2011 show. Also, smaller companies like my own have developed SQL applications that will import data from any MIS and offer a range of new functions, made possible by adding additional information from exam boards, national datasets and 'research' information provided by teachers.

 

I have mentioned before on these forums that schools need to consider using a range of data tools. Data-confident, self-evaluating schools that can show how they have acted on what they have found out about school standards are the ones where leadership will be judged as 'outstanding'. I have written about this on my popular 'blog' at this link.

 

If MShakeshaft would like to contact me off list at [email protected] I would very much like to learn more and help if I can (no costs involved).

Edited September 25, 2010 by MikeBostock

[GeneralDreedle]

I live in the hope that you are totally wrong Mike. "Data confident Self evaluating schools" need to tell inspectors to stick the data where the sun shines and show them happy, fulfilled children and staff instead.

 

There's only so many ways you can present 1000 kids shoe sizes and when your MIS and metrics are completely overhauled every 5 years you have no credible longitudinal data to rely on anyway. All KS3 sublevels are makebelieve with no calibration between KS2 and 3, no basis in the clalssroom, and no standardisation of assessment in most secondary subjects. The differences in most cohorts are so statistically insignificant as to be risible and the samples are too small to speak with any authority, particularly with the target groups they chase each year - eg white male FSM is the flavour of the month at the moment.

 

Any school level data that schools need is provided on Raise Online and FFT, and this is what the inspectors and SIPs use so why would they do anything else?

[Guest MikeBostock]

I live in the hope that you are totally wrong Mike. "Data confident Self evaluating schools" need to tell inspectors to stick the data where the sun shines and show them happy, fulfilled children and staff instead.

 

There's only so many ways you can present 1000 kids shoe sizes and when your MIS and metrics are completely overhauled every 5 years you have no credible longitudinal data to rely on anyway. All KS3 sublevels are makebelieve with no calibration between KS2 and 3, no basis in the clalssroom, and no standardisation of assessment in most secondary subjects. The differences in most cohorts are so statistically insignificant as to be risible and the samples are too small to speak with any authority, particularly with the target groups they chase each year - eg white male FSM is the flavour of the month at the moment.

 

Any school level data that schools need is provided on Raise Online and FFT, and this is what the inspectors and SIPs use so why would they do anything else?

 

Thanks for this response. "Schools that are strong on self-evaluation tend to do better in their inspection". That's a conference quote from Dr. Mike Treadaway of FFT, and it is our experience too from our involvement with Osfted inspection.

 

Regarding sample sizes, you are correct in saying that the interpretation of data needs to be sensible and the inferences need to be statistically valid. School evaluation is a complex business and teachers need to engage in the issues and get more used to being involved in the interpretation of performance data than they are at present.

Groups like White British males on FSM do need to be tracked across subjects and teaching groups because the performance of 'identifiable groups' is something that has been elevated in importance in the new inspection framework. Schools need to show that they are 'specialising' in approaches that raises attainment for groups known to underachieve at a national level.

 

RaiseOnline and FFT data does form the basis for the report that inspectors will already have drafted when they visit a school to find evidence of current standards. If a school doesn't like what it will say then it will need to have its own evidence to set alongside Raiseonline and FFT. Schools that can present a team with good evidence of the current progress of pupils, and the consistency and impact of teaching, will be more likely to be ones that are judged to be outstanding. In fact, the best schools already tend to be good at self-evaluation. There is more about this on the blog that I pointed out in the last post.

 

A particular point to watch is that data managers do have a key role to play in relation to inspection. It will affect them if inspectors say that the school is making effective, high-impact use of the data available to them, just as it will affect them in a slightly different way if they say that it isn't.

 

Coming back to the point I was making, schools do need to develop their use of Performance Data and to be opportunist about acquiring MIS products and third party tools that can help them with this important task.

[PiqueABoo]

The solution I think is contained in the reason why the beermat design team meetings always collapsed well before last orders: we always fell out over

SQL Server v MySQL

 

I served out a serious dev sentence on a nice big complex MIS in the 90s and but the end of that decade we'd "been there and done that" with the kind of issues that, AFAICT, the school ones have been mixed up in of late, not least interoperability. The rough timescales and resources seem reasonable to me, but this rather common OSS binary "all or nothing" is soooo.. frustrating. The first problem is having something that works (with the features an eclectic range of folk have been begging for), the next is getting them to discard the knowledge investment they have already in an existing product. The latter I think, is really, really hard, so you need to do everything you possibly can to chip away at it i.e. if they have MSSQL now and know how to drive it, then just give them MSSQL[1] to make the techs and LA support teams marginally less scared of it, make some of that existing tech know-how still useful and so on. You need the same kind of attitude to GUI-land except I avoid school MIS client apps like the plague so can't comment there.

 

It's the same uncompromising deal with lots of those OSS apps. Sure you can run it on Windows, but nope we're not interested in making deployment easy, we're certainly no going to use MS file/open dialogs so your lockdown works etc., and GPO configuration? Oh no we've got our very own opaque [js|conf|xml] so never in a month of Sundays!

 

::sigh::

 

[1] With the appropriate architecture you could certainly make the DB a choice, but no I'm not volunteering for any of this either.

[GeneralDreedle]

I agree with what you're saying about the whole vegan obsessiveness with opensource tools that have the sellotape hanging off them. I'm a pragmatist by nature and MS stuff works and the kids love it, but my epiphany here is that it is an idealogical battle. The war can only be won with a SinnFein solution. Eventually you get the government of the day to adopt a defacto standard. You get the Titan to stamp his feet and send the little men and their little houses back into the dust. Not a competing market. A truly Free one.

Much as I have loved MS tools over the years and ridiculed XWindows and widgets and gnu and all those noddy scripting languages I fear that means linux on desktops with web delivery to portable devices and other platforms. Schools can run lots of MS boxes on their networks (maybe I can keep Excel!), just not run their business system on them.

 

Why should the government ask the questions and not distibute the software that gives the answers? Why the tango through the year as census specs are revised and suppliers run to catch up? Issue the census patch when you raise the requirement. Otherwise don't bother the schools with the question!

[vikpaw]

Why should the government ask the questions and not distibute the software that gives the answers? Why the tango through the year as census specs are revised and suppliers run to catch up? Issue the census patch when you raise the requirement. Otherwise don't bother the schools with the question!

 

So what you're saying is, the government should liaise with the MIS suppliers about changing standards, and only when they have built them into their systems and all schools have upgraded, that is when they become mandatory. Interesting...

[PiqueABoo]

So what you're saying is, the government should liaise with the MIS suppliers about changing standards

 

I don't see that. In the current context of this thread we've very optimistically disappeared "MIS suppliers" for being too [expensive|parasitic|annoying]. The premise is that given a prevalent open source school MIS system, the Gov can bleeping well go and hack the code to implement any new must-have functionality they, as opposed to you, require.

 

it is an idealogical battle.

 

Indeed, but I think that's much better fought incrementally not with nukes. Think ahead, but go for genuine "quick wins" (urgh.. I hate that but it will have to do). Don't hold out for Utopia.

[vikpaw]

I don't see that. In the current context of this thread we've very optimistically disappeared "MIS suppliers" for being too [expensive|parasitic|annoying]. The premise is that given a prevalent open source school MIS system, the Gov can bleeping well go and hack the code to implement any new must-have functionality they, as opposed to you, require.

 

Now that is truly a fascinating concept. The government changes the goal posts and is obligated to alter the code, after which they send you the updated add-in. Now we're just dreaming.

[GeneralDreedle]

'Boo's got it. Your restatement of what I said is not right. There should be NO MIS suppliers. It's an artificial market. They are fantastical creatures, a bit like vampires really, differing only in that we brought them to life. The government creates requirements year on year and forces schools to gift taxpayers money to Capita and Serco etc. in order to meet those requirements. Now, we all know that govt can't manage IT projects (worked on some of them - that's a whole other can of worms) so I'm not foolish enough to be advocating another one.

 

What I'm saying is bottom-up create a culture of best value, shared reponsibility. Of course it's anaethma to BSF and managed service but then that's going to crash and burn anyway (see my strangely silent thread elsewhere). Lots of things start out dreaming. Lots of dreams die. But money talks vikpaw, and the bloat is about to burst. Might be someone listening now. Cheap Dreams: They really are interesting.

[vikpaw]

WOW GeneralDreedle, i'm thinking outside the box and seeing where you're coming from now. A big paradigm shift! thanks for clarifying.

[GREED]

Can someone disable this guys bold tool!

[WSF]

I'm definitely interested in assisting with this project, MShakeshaft. PM me if possible to discuss this further if you're interested?

[penfold_99]

The biggest issue you will need to over come is acceptance from state schools as they are normally locked into the version their county will support. This is normally a killer for any new MIS.

A better way of gaining a foot hold would be by modulising the application, base it round SIF the systems interoperability framework, this will allow you to integrate with all the leading MIS providers. Then you could select the area that could be most improved with lease amount of effort. repeat this process until you have a complete MIS and they can stop using their old one and easily migrate over.

[WSF]

The biggest issue you will need to over come is acceptance from state schools as they are normally locked into the version their county will support. This is normally a killer for any new MIS.

A better way of gaining a foot hold would be by modulising the application, base it round SIF the systems interoperability framework, this will allow you to integrate with all the leading MIS providers. Then you could select the area that could be most improved with lease amount of effort. repeat this process until you have a complete MIS and they can stop using their old one and easily migrate over.

 

I see your point, however with many schools gaining Academy status, they are able to break away from their LEAs and choose their own software.

 

Also, integrating with existing MIS providers will prove to be very difficult; Capita charge over £7k for partnership that gives you the resources to develop, and Serco Learning charge about £5k - so unless you're willing to shell out a lot of money, you're back to square one.

 

There is a huge need for a better and cheaper MIS though. Hope this goes ahead!

[penfold_99]

Also, integrating with existing MIS providers will prove to be very difficult; Capita charge over £7k for partnership that gives you the resources to develop, and Serco Learning charge about £5k - so unless you're willing to shell out a lot of money, you're back to square one.

 

But if you use an existing SIF agent for MIS integration the cost is sub £500. You only need to write your application to be SIF compliant and you will have integration.

[cacmcgoo]

hello all. I've been reading this thread with interest. I hate SIMS quite a lot. Are there any viable alternatives at all? If anyone knows of any options worth researching, can you share?

[john]

hello all. I've been reading this thread with interest. I hate SIMS quite a lot. Are there any viable alternatives at all? If anyone knows of any options worth researching, can you share?

 

It depends what you want from an MIS System, there are many products out in the Market, with the big names being Capita (Sims), Serco (Facility) & RM (Integris) those are the top 3 as far as I am aware unless they have changed. I personally am from a Serco background and find that many of the complaints I read and hear about Sims are non-existant in Serco, but like everything for every pro there is a con I guess, I have admin staff that have come from Sims schools who find it annoying as its missing features, for example Serco isn't tied to any brand of "Office Suite" so you can use any version and brand such as Open Office etc, as a result those who love the integration and dictation you gain with Sims find its like having a leg chopped off, I personally feel its a major positive that its not tying you into a MS Monopoly (although yes it does only run on Windows and needs an SQL Server before I am attacked about that!) Although Serco does have a good chunk of it web-based already thus your teachers and parents only need a web browser to access near enough everything they need, we only have the main Serco software on about 5 PCs in the school and these are key users - Registration, Timetable, Exams, Data Manager & Assessment Manager. Everyone else is using the Web Based parts of it as it really does have the vast majority of items in the web that anyone needs.

 

A key thing you need to look at is the benefits to Teaching and Learning that a change of MIS will bring, fine you may see it like changing from Windows XP to Windows 7, but there will be many thousands of pounds associated costs with changing MIS system that are not obvious such as staff training, support, time to transfer and setup what you already had in SIMS in whatever new program (such as custom lists, custom reports etc things that are not always portable between MIS Systems) it needs to have full school backing and support and it will be a 2 or 3 year program of transition IMHO. If you run before you can walk in your new MIS you will get a mess, which I have seen happen and we are still mopping up some of those messes now (yes we ran before we could walk moving from no real MIS / limited Integris to a full blown MIS setup!) its been a painful few months as we had to make some hard choices to fix some core issues we had made but that was down to running when we should have been gently strolling, but we are now on the up.

 

If you are serious about change, have you been to see schools / know schools that use other products already, its alright seeing the shiny brochures from the vendors, but you should find some schools and ask them about it, on here is a good place to start we have a mix of MIS users, although you will find that the majority are SIMS, but I can think of about a dozen Serco users and I'm sure we must have some Integris people on here somewhere lurking in the depths of Edugeek.

[Sivadam]

hello all. I've been reading this thread with interest. I hate SIMS quite a lot. Are there any viable alternatives at all? If anyone knows of any options worth researching, can you share?

 

If you post a few reasons why you 'hate SIMS quite a lot' then maybe some of the more discerning SIMS users can help you out with your issues. Perhaps doing the same on SupportNet would help too as there are obviously many experienced users contributing to the Forums there.

Also, I have no doubt that most of the SIMS Partnerships Schools/Academies would also welcome you to visit and view how they have SIMS setup successfully within their schools.

 

Most of the major MIS software companies no doubt have very complex systems and understanding the whole of any MIS can be difficult without that overall knowledge. Apologies if this is not true with your school though I would suspect that this is the case!

Edited October 18, 2010 by Sivadam

[cacmcgoo]

Well firstly I'm loking at SIMS from a users perspective (i.e. a humble teacher), I'm not a data manager or similar. And I suppose hate is too strong a word. But I do find the useability of sims a bit frustrating to say the least, 'non-intuitive' would cover it. I think I'm a bit anti-capita too - I had the misfortune of extracating a school from a miss-sold VLE package made by Capita. I get the same feeling whenever I'm using SIMS - this could be better!

I just think that for general day to day teaching use, its a bit inflexible. Its also expensive, and this goes back the the VLE experience- the school I worked for then was paying an awful lot for a system that didnt do what it should - and the move to Moodle was a blessing in that particular circumstance. I guess what my first posting was intended to do was not seek help with SIMS issues, but really explore wether there are any viable alternatives:

1. Save a significant ammount of money

2. Be user friendly enough to make the re-training/re-integration simple/smooth for your 'average user'.

3. Keep the functionality which I will never have a full handle on, but which the data experts need.

 

thanks to the previous two responses- I'm always overwhelmed and grateful that people take the time to offer advice in such a friendly and timely manner.

 

to sum up,(and its probably more illustrative of what I'm getting at more than anything) if there was an equivalent product to our Moodle VLE that might be an option for a school MIS, then I would be interested in exploring it...... I hope this last bit makes sense.

 

Tom