Zero Clients

[Axel]

A request was made to start a new post on Zero Clients, so as forum sponsor we’d thought we’d start it...!

 

The first thing to point out is that if you ask 5 different thin client manufacturers for a definition of a Zero Client you will get 5 different answers. I will let the other manufacturers add their interpretations as they see fit.

 

As it is a marketing buzzword there is no “definitive” definition

 

Axel‘s description of a Zero Client is a terminal that:

1) Has no operating system (stateless)

2) Has no local intelligence

3) Has no local browser

4) All applications are run on the server, or virtual machine

5) Does not need to pull an operating system over the network to boot

 

As such they are very small, low cost, low power consuming devices, typically 5 watts max.

 

Zero Clients are a natural response to conventional thin clients which have evolved in many cases to be very similar in complexity (and price) to entry level PCs – the very products thin clients were supposed to replace as much simpler devices.

 

Our definition applies to the terminal connecting to a conventional Terminal Server/Citrix Server or to a virtual desktop. (ie VM Viewer or Citrix XenDesktop).

 

As Virtual Desktop Infrastructure is allowing thin clients to operate in areas conventionally proscribed to PCs, this is an area of great interest to many parties. Some of the areas where PCs were traditionally deployed (ie multi-media) will start to be available to thin clients.

 

Specifically for multimedia there are many competitive and incompatible products vying for this ‘new’ market, but there are two basic architectures.

 

1) Connection at a VGA level (such as RDP & ICA)

2) Connection at a GPU level (such as VMware’s PCoIP, Microsoft’s announced “Calista”, Citrix’s HDX(?) and various other proprietary offerings).

 

Microsoft's plan to enter this market next year with their Calista technology will be very significant to all involved - love 'em or loathe 'em - what they do effects everyone. In brief it seems this product will directly support multi-media without the need to have embedded or downloaded codecs in the client . More information below for those interested.

 

http://download.microsoft.com/download/5/E/6/5E66B27B-988B-4F50-AF3A-C2FF1E62180F/ENT-T591_WH08.pptx

 

As I am starting to wander off topic I’ll leave the multimedia/VDI discussion for another post.

 

I look forward to a lively and hopefully constructive debate on the subject of Zero Clients...!

Edited December 5, 2009 by Axel

[ajbritton]

It sounds to me like a 'zero client' is just a 'thin client' that boots over the network. What is the advantage of this?

[Axel]

@ AJBritton

 

As I said above, there is not one definition of "Zero Client". We would describe a Zero Thin Client as a device that does not require an operating system at all so not embedded or dragged over the network on boot.

 

I have also seen the name Zero Client applied to devices based on Terradici hardware -(the company who created PCoIP), Sunray technology and the various products that attach multiple clients to XP PCs....

 

These are all very different technologies but have the 'no local operating system' feature in common and do not drag an operating system over the network to boot.

Edited December 6, 2009 by Axel

[PiqueABoo]

a device that does not require an operating system neither embedded nor dragged over the network on boot.

 

I'm struggling with apparent subtlety of definitions here: How does anything happen client-side if there isn't some embedded code being processed to get the graphics (presumably decompress them etc.) send keystrokes back, do whatever it takes for USB and so on, and if it's over IP implement a credible TCP/IP stack and so on?

[Axel]

@ PiqueABoo

 

...our implementation is to have RDP and ICA written in machine language and embedded directly in the hardware. (RDP + ICA + TCP/IP + setup menus/diagnostics etc is less than 400Kb in size). No operating system, No BIOS, No network boot, 5 seconds from switch on to logon - this is about as thin as it gets - hence our claim to the term "zero client"....

[cookie_monster]

It sounds to me like a 'zero client' is just a 'thin client' that boots over the network. What is the advantage of this?

 

 

A description that I read was that a zero client (In one vendors opinion) is somewhere between a thin and fat client but with out a disk (I think they mean zero install or management). The OS (or parts of) is streamed over the network into memory on demand and the processing is done locally. This means that it acts like a fat client for peripherals and running heavy apps but it is completely reset after each session. You then manage one copy of the OS and apps in a central location for all clients.

This setup can make OS, app and patch management very easy and you don't need to manage you local stations, but you have all the benefits of a fat client setup. You would probably use this setup alongside a traditional thin client setup e.g CItrix.

[tmcd35]

@Cookie_Monster - thats the description I'm interested in. I think I saw it mentioned in another thread - Wyse WSM. Haven't found any pricing info for it yet though.

[linescanner]

I'm struggling with apparent subtlety of definitions here: How does anything happen client-side if there isn't some embedded code being processed to get the graphics (presumably decompress them etc.) send keystrokes back, do whatever it takes for USB and so on, and if it's over IP implement a credible TCP/IP stack and so on?

 

 

Sun Ray has a bunch of firmware here to do this. The info is passed back to the control servers which then do the cool and funky bits.

 

Zero clients have to have some kind of processing else they would be called a box

[Butuz]

Zero clients are a great idea. Why use a cut down version of windows or linux installed on a flash card, when you can use some ultra efficient firmware integrated into the device itself.

 

The first Zero client I tried was an Axel M70w and I knew then that this was a big step over normal, fat thin clients (?!!!) like HP/Wyse etc. Near instant set up, and near instant boot up and shut down made me go yay!!!

 

The M80 I have here is even better as it can actually play video!

 

I also have two Sun Ray clients ready to test out but I have not had a chance to set up Solaris and the server back end. Annoying as I cant wait to give them a go!

 

Zero = Hero baby! The HP fat thin clients I have here are now totally outdated in my eyes, and use a gargantuan 15watts each. Yuk!

 

Butuz

[linescanner]

Zero clients are a great idea. Why use a cut down version of windows or linux installed on a flash card, when you can use some ultra efficient firmware integrated into the device itself.

 

The first Zero client I tried was an Axel M70w and I knew then that this was a big step over normal, fat thin clients (?!!!) like HP/Wyse etc. Near instant set up, and near instant boot up and shut down made me go yay!!!

 

The M80 I have here is even better as it can actually play video!

 

I also have two Sun Ray clients ready to test out but I have not had a chance to set up Solaris and the server back end. Annoying as I cant wait to give them a go!

 

Zero = Hero baby! The HP fat thin clients I have here are now totally outdated in my eyes, and use a gargantuan 15watts each. Yuk!

 

Butuz

 

 

And, give me a shout and we can help get them set up.

[bio]

@Cookie_Monster - thats the description I'm interested in. I think I saw it mentioned in another thread - Wyse WSM. Haven't found any pricing info for it yet though.

 

We are investigating Wyse WSM as well. Allready had some demo's and some talks. Looks good for our environment.

 

bio..

[nut-ed]

We are investigating Wyse WSM as well. Allready had some demo's and some talks. Looks good for our environment.

 

bio..

 

.....what advantages do you expect to gain with this ?

 

This must be "pre-Virtual Desktop" technology, does it do anything VMware Viewer or XenDesktop can't do ?

[localzuk]

@ PiqueABoo

 

...our implementation is to have RDP and ICA written in machine language and embedded directly in the hardware. (RDP + ICA + TCP/IP + setup menus/diagnostics etc is less than 400Kb in size). No operating system, No BIOS, No network boot, 5 seconds from switch on to logon - this is about as thin as it gets - hence our claim to the term "zero client"....

 

If you're writing a RDP/ICA client direct into machine language, then *that* is the OS. It drives the physical equipment (as you say TCP/IP, but it'll also drive the graphics adapter, screen, keyboard, mouse etc...).

 

To state that it has no OS is simply misleading (your company is not the only one to make this claim though). It is just a very thin, thin client with no management.

[cookie_monster]

If you're writing a RDP/ICA client direct into machine language, then *that* is the OS. It drives the physical equipment (as you say TCP/IP, but it'll also drive the graphics adapter, screen, keyboard, mouse etc...).

 

To state that it has no OS is simply misleading (your company is not the only one to make this claim though). It is just a very thin, thin client with no management.

 

 

 

The claim is Ultra Thin client it does have a very limited local OS as you can manage them remotly but as you say they do use a custom ICA/RDP client that should do all of the rest of the work.

[tmcd35]

.....what advantages do you expect to gain with this ?

 

This must be "pre-Virtual Desktop" technology, does it do anything VMware Viewer or XenDesktop can't do ?

 

It's about where the physical hardware power lays. Virtual Desktop is very similar to traditional Terminal Services. The hardware grunt is on the server, the Thin Client has minimal hardware - essentially a KVM.

 

With WSM the hardware power is on the individual client desktop. The advantage *should* be that hardware intensive apps like CAD, movie editing, etc can run fine but you get the bonus of a single centrally managed desktop image.

[cookie_monster]

It's about where the physical hardware power lays. Virtual Desktop is very similar to traditional Terminal Services. The hardware grunt is on the server, the Thin Client has minimal hardware - essentially a KVM.

 

With WSM the hardware power is on the individual client desktop. The advantage *should* be that hardware intensive apps like CAD, movie editing, etc can run fine but you get the bonus of a single centrally managed desktop image.

 

 

Exactly, it probably ends up costing about the same as a typical client server setup but it should be more easy to manage.

[bio]

It's about where the physical hardware power lays. Virtual Desktop is very similar to traditional Terminal Services. The hardware grunt is on the server, the Thin Client has minimal hardware - essentially a KVM.

 

With WSM the hardware power is on the individual client desktop. The advantage *should* be that hardware intensive apps like CAD, movie editing, etc can run fine but you get the bonus of a single centrally managed desktop image.

 

This is exactly why we are into this

 

bio..

[DavidAngwin]

Thanks to Axel for staring the thread. As they point out the term is being used different ways by different vendors. This gets confusing so in my opinion its better to look at the solutions rather than get hung up on the exact definition.

 

For the record, at Wyse we talk about a zero client if it does not have a local operating system that needs updating. Every client will have some software on it, but the the distinctions between BIOS, firmware and operating system are very imprecise - so one person's zero client could be another's thin client.

 

What does this mean in reality? At Wyse we have two type of 'zero client' solution.

 

1) Wyse WSM - this is a streaming solution where the zero client or diskless PC does a network boot and the operating system and applications are streamed to the client. The key difference with this solution is that OS and apps run on the client, not on the server. This gives full PC functionality and much reduced server loads. Multimedia performance is native, peripherals plug & play, but you still get the benefits of centralised OS and application management. Wyse zero clients for use with WSM have no local storage so they have RAM only, no Flash memory.

 

2) Wyse P20 - this is a zero client specifically for VMware View and contains the Teradici PCoIP chipset and firmware. In concept its really a pure terminal - which is where Wyse started nearly 30 years ago with our green-screen terminals - for those of you who can remember these

 

regards,

David

[bio]

Thanks to Axel for staring the thread. As they point out the term is being used different ways by different vendors. This gets confusing so in my opinion its better to look at the solutions rather than get hung up on the exact definition.

 

For the record, at Wyse we talk about a zero client if it does not have a local operating system that needs updating. Every client will have some software on it, but the the distinctions between BIOS, firmware and operating system are very imprecise - so one person's zero client could be another's thin client.

 

What does this mean in reality? At Wyse we have two type of 'zero client' solution.

 

1) Wyse WSM - this is a streaming solution where the zero client or diskless PC does a network boot and the operating system and applications are streamed to the client. The key difference with this solution is that OS and apps run on the client, not on the server. This gives full PC functionality and much reduced server loads. Multimedia performance is native, peripherals plug & play, but you still get the benefits of centralised OS and application management. Wyse zero clients for use with WSM have no local storage so they have RAM only, no Flash memory.

 

2) Wyse P20 - this is a zero client specifically for VMware View and contains the Teradici PCoIP chipset and firmware. In concept its really a pure terminal - which is where Wyse started nearly 30 years ago with our green-screen terminals - for those of you who can remember these

 

regards,

David

 

THX for the clarification. We are starting up a pilot to see if autocad will run on a wise zero client. However one is not limited to a wise zero client.. You can also use an HP thin client (50 watt) to test if autocad will work. Dual core but it has more Watt (compared to Wyse 16 watt).. we'll see how it goes

 

bio..

[Butuz]

To state that it has no OS is simply misleading (your company is not the only one to make this claim though). It is just a very thin, thin client with no management.

 

I don't think it is misleading - the Axel clients do not have an O/S, they simply have Firmware. Think of it as an extended version of a PC BIOS, but with RDP/CITRIX etc built in to the BIOS. NO operating system needs to be installed on top of this "super BIOS" and none is.

 

Butuz

[localzuk]

I don't think it is misleading - the Axel clients do not have an O/S, they simply have Firmware. Think of it as an extended version of a PC BIOS, but with RDP/CITRIX etc built in to the BIOS. NO operating system needs to be installed on top of this "super BIOS" and none is.

 

Butuz

 

RDP etc... are high level applications, which aren't required for the operation of the machine. Therefore, they are running on top of something - you can't do RDP direct to a graphics processor, it doesn't understand it. The layer in between, be it what you call firmware (which I would call an OS anyway), is still an operating system, changing the protocol into the form needed to operate the graphics card, memory, hard disks etc...

 

Saying there is no OS, then saying there is firmware is contradictory. The firmware that runs an iphone is firmware, but it is still an OS. Same with managed switches (Cisco IOS, for example, or the firmware on Procurve Switches). All firmware, but all still OS's.

[cookie_monster]

RDP etc... are high level applications, which aren't required for the operation of the machine. Therefore, they are running on top of something - you can't do RDP direct to a graphics processor, it doesn't understand it. The layer in between, be it what you call firmware (which I would call an OS anyway), is still an operating system, changing the protocol into the form needed to operate the graphics card, memory, hard disks etc...

 

Saying there is no OS, then saying there is firmware is contradictory. The firmware that runs an iphone is firmware, but it is still an OS. Same with managed switches (Cisco IOS, for example, or the firmware on Procurve Switches). All firmware, but all still OS's.

 

 

 

That’s exactly how I understand it as well.

[tmcd35]

Saying there is no OS, then saying there is firmware is contradictory. The firmware that runs an iphone is firmware, but it is still an OS. Same with managed switches (Cisco IOS, for example, or the firmware on Procurve Switches). All firmware, but all still OS's.

 

Crazy computing facts - Pacman on the Atari 2600 is both Firmware (fixed software stored on ROM) and an Operating System (software that provides a direct interface between the user and the hardware).

[ajbritton]

We seem to be debating what is or isn't an OS. If that's the case then I would say that if the code that hosts the network stack and video interface only exists to support a single application (e.g. RDP), then that's firmware. An OS is about providing a platform for multiple applications to access the hardware etc.

 

I do think the term 'zero client' is misleading though. I can't see any difference between a device that has firmware built in but that can be updated over the network to one that boots part of its code across the network. Using this logic, a PC is a zero client until you switch it on and it loads its OS off the hard disk.

 

Surely what matters is where your applications run. If they run on the device, then it's using an OS and is therefore NOT a thin client. If the device cannot run applications other than a remote desktop, it's a thin client. Everything else is marketing or system management mechanism.

Edited December 17, 2009 by ajbritton
fixed couple of typos

[Axel]

We seem to be debating what is or isn't an OS. If that's the case then I would say that if the code that hosts the network stack and video interface only exists to support a single application (e.g. RDP), then that's firmware. An OS is about providing a platform for multiple applications to access the hardware etc.

 

I do think the term 'zero client' is misleading though. I can't see any difference between a device that has firmware built in but that can be updated over the network to one that boots part of its code across the network. Using this logic, a PC is a zero client until you switch it on and it loads its OS off the hard disk.

 

Surely what matters is where your applications run. If they run on the device, then it's using an OS and is therefore NOT a thin client. If the device cannot run applications other than a remote desktop, it's a thin client. Everything else is marketing or system management mechanism.

 

ah ha - I can't disagree with the above - essentially all thin clients ultimately do the same thing in making a connection over RDP/ICA to a server, but not all thin clients are the same.

 

The point of Zero Clients is not to open a debate of of what exactly an operating system is, whatever the exact definition is largely irrelevent to the topic.

 

A device with tiny firmware footprint (500kb), that uses 5 watts of power, boots in 2 or 3 seconds, is the size of a cigarette packet and in most cases offers significantly higher performance than competiting techologies with much more hardware on-board is fundamentally different to the conventional Linux/CE/XP thin clients around - so deserves a different classification - why not "Zero Client" ?