nut-ed

You may find this reference interesting. As per Dave-Os observations, it does seem VDI is much hyped as the next big thing, but most users seem to end up using "traditional" tried and trusted Terminal Services or Citrix. http://www.axesssystems.co.uk/pdf/casestudy-stretford.pdf Whatever you do - you could be advised to wait till W2008r2 SP1 is released, with its new RemoteFX technology - this promises to address the "multi-media" issue in low cost thin clients.... Is there anyone reading this who uses WMware Viewer in a school environment...? It seems many people virtualised their servers (successfully) and feel the obvious next step is to virtualise desktops - where in reality existing thin client technology has been doing a pretty good job of this for years.

OK- it's the silly season... Dragon Den's Peter Jones shows his knowledge of thin clients and skewers a salesman on his (un)green PC's made out of standard PC parts. I 'specially like Theo's question "What makes your machine special" and the salesman's answer: " Nothing at all - its all off the shelf" ...and Peter Jones is right about the green-ness of terminals over PCs, he just got a little confused between green-screen terminals (RS232?) and Winterms - but his power consumption argument would stand either way... Enjoy !

....rather than start a new post - I thought I'd recycle this one, in keeping with the subject... Things have moved on since the posts above - with feed in tarifs and more more expensive electricity/gas etc. Does anyone have any direct experience of solar power, it "looks" on the surface to be feasible now - Has anyone taken up these "free" PV solar systems where the installer gets the FIT tarif and you just get the free power ? I suppose if you sequentially run your dish washer, washing machine, immersion heaters this is pretty effective in summer - but in winter ? All the sales spiel says PV still generate power on cloudy days, but not so forward saying how much, anyone know how much power you can expect from a short, dark, cloudy English winter's day.... Any info from actual users would be very interesting... (Am considering this for home use, not work/school)

...at these prices a PC must look pretty tempting, costs less, more flexible, more powerful (?), and have same downsides as a PC in terms of manageability, virus implications, Windows updates, local user accounts etc). ThinStore - Thin Clients - Wyse - Windows XPe - R Class

This 10Zig product you're promoting and trying to sell on Edugeek is the generic clone product manufactured by Thin Client Provider somewhere deep in Taiwan, and re-badged by several wannabe instant thin client "manufacturers" yeah...? As a clone manufacturer they don't bring anything new to the party so please stop ramming it down our throats... Thanks

Has anyone tried Promethean on Terminal Services / Citrix. On paper the serial models should work using serial port re-direction... Anyone actually tried it....?

Out of interest is a warning issued before users are banned for "selling" on Edugeek - are are they zapped and don't know what hit them - this particular post does seem to have attracted more than its fair share of manufacturers touting their "me-too" products - good on the moderators for trying to limit the manufacturers spin/spam - it is appreciated !

...I read RemoteFX as being applicible to VDI AND regular old terminal services (W2008r2). VDI is overly complicated and expensive, does anyone actually use it ? - but TSE isn't expensive or resource hungry

The whole ballpark could well change when Microsoft's RemoteFX product emerges.... RDP has so many advantages over other methods, the one problem it does have is multimedia performance. (I've not done the maths - but I don't think cost is a factor "one server and bunch of TCs" should be about the same as "bunch of PCs + bunch of graphic cards +bunch of USB hubs - at the end of the day, one running one operating system and having all applications on a single server has got to be more efficient in terms of hardware than multiple PCs - even if you were able to 100% maximise each PC's hardware) RemoteFX is billed as being able to solve the multimedia issue, whether is does or not remains to be seen.... Microsoft announces "RemoteFX," the Calista-based Hyper-V-requiring PC-over-IP competitor. Here's our full analysis. - Brian Madden - BrianMadden.com What is pretty certain, with all these new technologies emerging there will be winners and losers - and no one wants to be stuck with a loser. Microsoft seem to normally end up on the winning side..!

A thought to share.... ...all these new technologies based on multiple clusters of PC + various bits of hardware... Maybe one day someone will come up with a technology where you just have one PC supporting dozens of users - and be able to lock the PC far away from the kids, and not be constrained by cable lengths, and use nice thin cable that can be embedded in walls and just use generic Microsoft products - and not be constrained to one vendors technology.... and supposing such a technology could operate over WANs and be aplicable for home users, and support all sorts of peripherals, and centralise all the virus, content, update management to one server (ooop I mean PC).... ..and be greener in terms of total power consumption... Oh well, one can dream.....maybe one day!

There is a parallel/similar discussion on another thread about the licence/legality of Ncomputing on XP, and from a licencing point of view its hard to see how/why MS would differentiate between multiple users hanging off a PC by a VGA cable or a USB cable or any other kind of cable for that matter http://www.edugeek.net/forums/thin-client-virtual-machines/50790-n-computing-anyone-using-3.html#post470974 Microsoft did provide a definitive answer to their licencing issue. (of course in favour of MS) It is hard to see how this thread is going to resolve without a similar formal quote - whether you feel it is necessary or not, the claims of one lone salesman are not very convincing.

Fair point - it remains to be seen if Multipoint/USB provides "sufficient" graphics performance - if it's not significantly better than "tried and tested" thin clients the whole thing may just fizzle out.

..... the HP Multipoint solution is based on a chip developed by a company founded by the engineer who was core to the team who invented VNC. Their main technology is video transmission/compression, so there is more "intelligence" to it than just supporting multiple virtual video cards and sending out VGA content. The link below gives more information - including something quite rare these days - some technical info about how it works... DisplayLink: Technology Overview So - generic VGA may work for Multipoint - but without whatever "Displaylink" bring to the party, presumably higher performance....

hmmm: a lot of nice sales blurb, but did he actually answer any of your questions..?

This could be an interesting product, as the company was formed by the guy who invented VNC and the main graphics engine for HP Multipoint thin clients. Not seen in it action personally - but he obviously knows a thing or two about transmitting graphics over networks... CODA Digital Signage for Education | Camvine

What, you mean apart from the obvious advantage that you don't have to worry about Microsoft Licensing, so it should cost considerably less....

This quote is getting a bit boring - the latest thin-zero clients take low single figures of wattage, similar to a multi-VGA card + USB extender...(pro-rata / user), so if power consumption is the battle ground lets operate on a level playing field.... It is absurd to assume this by MS's silence - they can't comment on every product that comes out, they offer pre-requisits and it is up to company's to ensure their products comply. For example here are well documented registry hacks to lift the single user limit of XP - of course doing this would clearly be against the spirit of MS's licencing policy, but MS haven't commented on this, because just the act of commenting would higher the profile of the hack and make the problem worse....

Licencing is like income tax - we all hate paying it - but there is an "sort of" fairness about it I suppose the reason why this licencing issue won't go away for you until you get get a definitive response from MS is that it just does not 'feel' correct - that is attaching 6 users to one version of XP.... And your failure to get a satisfactory response from MS just confirms this unease...

Here are some interesting comments from people who have used both systems (Ncomputing + HP thin clients.....) Ncomputing Vs Hp thin clients > NComputing User Forums > NComputing I guess the point about Windows updates 'breaking' the Ncomputing software is related to the fact that Microsoft don't officially recognise Ncomputing as a partner - (ref. Microsoft's letter), so Ncomputing don't get official MS support or advance copies to test etc - rather they have to reverse engineer once updates are released, so will always be a step behind, so automatic Windows updates will be problematic... We have to assume Microsoft's Multipoint won't suffer same way...! I read today Wyse are releasing a US$99 Multipoint terminal, that figure is probably less than the profit margin they make on their high end models ! Does anyone know what the max length for the USB connection is...?

based on the above do you expect this to work out cheaper than deploying "conventional" server based thin clients, doing the maths quickly it doesn't seem to - the capital cost would look to be about the same as 30 thin clients + server, the total cost when factoring power usage, extra support, etc could be much higher... In terms of support I'm seeing this as supporting 4 or 5 "little" terminal servers as opposed to one big one in terms of backing up, securing, anti-virus, software updates etc. and these 'little' terminal servers being deployed in potentially adverse and distant locations (classrooms!). Do you see this as a premium solution....?

This is the HP device: http://bizsupport1.austin.hp.com/bc/docs/support/SupportManual/c01923375/c01923375.pdf I can't see it having any relationship with Ncomputing except as competitor - and in the blurb HP go out of their way saying it is fully supported and fully licenced - possibly a sideways dig at Ncomputing ? This device connects by USB to host, not cat5. That seems to to be the "interesting" point and introduces the benefits and disadvantages, ie avoids the performance hit for multimedia over TCP/IP (RDP), but also introduces the cabling issues and other considerations when moving away from tried and trusted Ethernet into something proprietary... I guess the CAT5 Ncomputing device is just a generic RDP thin client, pricewise it is in the same ballpark. Does anyone know if the USB devices from Ncomputing and HP will be compatible ? would seem doubtful as Ncomputing have their own software - and HP will be using Microsoft's Multipoint which wasn't (isn't!) around when Ncomputing started....

...But don't underestimate the "HP effect" - They don't even have to make the "best" product to dominate a market, many organisations are just "comfortable" with the HP brand. This will be a factor N-Computing don't currently have to contend with... (HP have been successful in the traditional thin client market with pretty uninspiring products, compared to the dedicated thin client manufacturers' products) If what TMCD says above is true, and he seems pretty clued up on this, Ncomputing introduced and popularised the technology - but don't have a unique selling point....

Good comments on all this on: If imitation is flattery, Microsoft MultiPoint will make NComputing blush - Brian Madden - BrianMadden.com The article makes it pretty clear MS are gunning for this market - and not many companies/products have survived going head to head with MS...! N-Computing are going to have to do something pretty spectactular to retain their market, least of which will be to sort out their licencing - MS might not take such a forgiving view when competing directly against their official product.... This seems to have more than a few parallels to the Citrix/MS situation of old, where Citrix produced a Multi-User version of Windows (well before Microsoft did), MS took Citrix to court with result ever since Citrix has had to be an "add-on" to terminal services... Luckily for Citrix early terminal services was pretty poor, leaving room for both companies to work together... I can't see Multipoint being "pretty poor" and leaving much room for an add-on product...

There have been lots of comments on these and similar products over the licensing "legality" of running multiple users off one XP PC. It does seem counter-intuitive that Microsoft would allow this as it undermines their flagship terminal server products. If Ncomputing are prepared to give you written statement that their product does not contravene MS licensing policy you should be covered - if they just refer you to MS t&c's they are putting the responsibility onto you... Someone made the comment that MS are unlikely to sue a school, but they might 'fix' the registery hack that allows their single user products to be turned into multi-user products, or maybe more likely MS will make their imminent "Multipoint" product so attractive as to render unofficial XP/Vista based solutions redundant ! Windows MultiPoint Server 2010 home page