To RM or not to RM, that is the question...

[Nozza]

Although I'm sure it shouldn't be an influencing factor when making such a decision but...I don't think running an RM network does much for your career prospects.

[synaesthesia]

I can't imagine for one moment that "multiseat" computing has a huge audience in education anyway. The costs you'd save in energy etc would easily be offset by the costs of running the improved hardware to ensure everyone has a decent experience, and pushes more resource-hungry applications/projects out of the window. I'd like to see a class full of folks running Photoshop and video editing software, which occurs in some of my primaries - let alone when it's scaled up to secondary/further education levels.

Everything has it's place, and I would hope establishments weigh up all the options before investing.

[sparkeh]

Thing that concerns me with multiseat computing is that a hardware fault on the machine loses you more seats than with a traditional machine.

[Tallwood_6]

Thing that concerns me with multiseat computing is that a hardware fault on the machine loses you more seats than with a traditional machine.

 

That is largely my concern, and also future OS's support and licencing issues.

[andy_d]

I can't imagine for one moment that "multiseat" computing has a huge audience in education anyway. The costs you'd save in energy etc would easily be offset by the costs of running the improved hardware to ensure everyone has a decent experience, and pushes more resource-hungry applications/projects out of the window. I'd like to see a class full of folks running Photoshop and video editing software, which occurs in some of my primaries - let alone when it's scaled up to secondary/further education levels.

Everything has it's place, and I would hope establishments weigh up all the options before investing.

 

I at first, had the same thoughts... Until we trialled SoftXpand ourselves, and all I can say is WOW!

We had a 6 user PC, and opened Photoshop at the same time on all 6, no slowdown at all, we were editing images etc perfectly fine.

 

Oh yes, what I haven't mentioned yet, is whilst opening/using Photoshop, we had Pro Desktop open on a couple, Publisher, Word, SIMS on others... Oh, and a DVD also playing on one, and BBC IPlayer on another and guess what, no matter what we threw at it, it continued to run perfectly fine!

 

All I can suggest is, try it to see for yourself, I'm sure you'd be pleasantly surprised

 

Yes, SoftXpand doesn't work on RM, but what does unless RM want you to use it/charge you ££££ to do so *sniggers* cough cough etc.

 

We are currently an RM school, considering/looking to move away, for various reasons, which I won't go into here as I don't want to start a Vanvilla/RM war on the forum lol

 

[Mr.Ben]

I'm not a big fan of RM CC*.

 

I've built a vanilla network from scratch since moving to my current school, I'll admit that it took 3 months of hard work to get it to the state it is in today where it needs little maintenence. It has also taken about 5k to do it, but now

 

I moved from a Netware school to one that had mainly 2003/XP Licensing in place, and had to do an awful lot of learning quickly, but I was given the time and support of SMT to do it - and as mentioned Google and this website helped me along the way greatly.

 

Things you need to know/learn:

GPO's - (For redirecting folders and locking down workstations)

20

2003 Print Server

Repackaging Software/How to get to the MSI's in packages (Appdeploy is a great website)

WSUS

A bit of VB scripting

DNS/DHCP

 

Things you need to buy:

A better software deployment system than GPO (I use SpecOps Deploy - £9 per licence and it does legacy stuff without having to repackage it - big time saver!)

A remote backup Solution for SIMS data and other Important stuff.

NAS for other backups (An intel storage server will set you back £500)

 

Things you can get for free:

Inventory + Helpdesk Systems (Spiceworks)

BackUp software (NTBackup)

Loads of really useful software!

FOG

VMWare Server for testing software deployments

 

Optionals:

Virtual Servers (Buy a Enterprise 2008 Licence for Hyper-V and 4 free Virtual licences)

Remote Access (I bought a SonicWall VPN box for £1200).

 

I've spent a lot of money overall (50k) for a special school (150 Pc's, 250 users), but this has mainly been on upgrading obsolete hardware (Servers, Switches, a managed Wireless system etc), buying licences for things that were being used but had not been purchased, replacing old desktops and getting the cabling sorted. I've offset this by using local grants and bids - We also have a SSAT Tech Specialism.

 

I've only spent about £3000 (With support contracts of £300 pa) in total on new network software (if you take out the excessive costs of getting the licencing back to being legal - cheers Mr. predecossor), Sophos is supplied by the LA for £50 a year and everything else is Open/Free or built into the server operating systems.

 

Vanilla networks are great, but can take time to get everything right.

[Edu-IT]

Although I'm sure it shouldn't be an influencing factor when making such a decision but...I don't think running an RM network does much for your career prospects.

Why? My understanding is that the RM Management Console sits on top of everything else. Windows is still the same and you can still use AD as you would otherwise if you really want to. I mean, there's no need to really as you use the RMMC for most things but you're not restricted.

[sparkeh]

Why? My understanding is that the RM Management Console sits on top of everything else. Windows is still the same and you can still use AD as you would otherwise if you really want to. I mean, there's no need to really as you use the RMMC for most things but you're not restricted.

 

Yeah you could do everything in AD but you should bear in mind that with CC3 (not sure about CC4 yet, being installed in the near future) not everything is done in AD in the traditional way, you will need to get you head around the setup. Much easier to just use RMMC.

[jamesb]

Why? My understanding is that the RM Management Console sits on top of everything else. Windows is still the same and you can still use AD as you would otherwise if you really want to. I mean, there's no need to really as you use the RMMC for most things but you're not restricted.

 

No, you can't use AD as you would normally in general - or at least that was my experience with CC3 at one school and with Ranger at another.

 

Trying to apply GPOs can cause clashes, there are settings which RM software ignores or switches off. All of your users are managed by RM and the RM tools, and trying to use the native tools can blow up various things in nasty ways, so you don't really learn Vanilla user management. Finally there's the biggest issue I had with CC3 - renaming computers. In order to rename a workstation you had to rebuild the entire thing from scratch. Prevents using the names for any purpose which means they might have to change.

[andy_d]

No, you can't use AD as you would normally in general - or at least that was my experience with CC3 at one school and with Ranger at another.

 

Trying to apply GPOs can cause clashes, there are settings which RM software ignores or switches off. All of your users are managed by RM and the RM tools, and trying to use the native tools can blow up various things in nasty ways, so you don't really learn Vanilla user management. Finally there's the biggest issue I had with CC3 - renaming computers. In order to rename a workstation you had to rebuild the entire thing from scratch. Prevents using the names for any purpose which means they might have to change.

 

 

Yep, and in fact I think I'm right in saying that RM basically pretty much say something along the lines "if you do start tinkering with the GPO's etc manually, then they won't want to offer you support to fix anything if it breaks" - Same with them with regards to "only installing Windows updates when they are released for CC3" Even though this means all your workstations not having the latest security patches.

 

I was highly amused the other day when RM sent out the e-mail saying "Service Pack 3 for XP CC3 machines should be released in October." Er..... get with the times RM, Windows 7 should be out in October.

[sparkeh]

Same with them with regards to "only installing Windows updates when they are released for CC3" Even though this means all your workstations not having the latest security patches.

Waiting until the end of the month until they are rolled out in the monthly update is no big deal though right?

 

I was highly amused the other day when RM sent out the e-mail saying "Service Pack 3 for XP CC3 machines should be released in October." Er..... get with the times RM, Windows 7 should be out in October.

Win7 won't work with CC3. In the future it will work with CC4.

 

The XP SP3 is a little annoying though. Its not a massive deal as a fully patched SP2 is the same as an up to date SP3 (as SP3 is an update rollup). Would be nice to clean up the build area though and perhaps it might reduce build times a bit?

[Edu-IT]

I'm really impressed by the RMMC so really there should be no need to go anywhere near AD. You will always get people who have the experience and time to go with a Vanilla network. Then you'll get the people with small support teams, less experience with Vanilla networks and quite frankly not got the time to go Vanilla and therefore a solution like RM seems to be pretty perfect for them.

[Theblacksheep]

In the future it will work with CC4.

 

When will CC4 work?

[verygreenpc]

I can't imagine for one moment that "multiseat" computing has a huge audience in education anyway. The costs you'd save in energy etc would easily be offset by the costs of running the improved hardware to ensure everyone has a decent experience, and pushes more resource-hungry applications/projects out of the window. I'd like to see a class full of folks running Photoshop and video editing software, which occurs in some of my primaries - let alone when it's scaled up to secondary/further education levels.

Everything has it's place, and I would hope establishments weigh up all the options before investing.

 

Thanks to Andy D for answering your queries. Education is a huge market for SoftXpand because it is the only system of it's kind capable of handling high graphics intensive and mutlimedia applications.

 

Energy savings would not be offset by improved hardware because the hardware follows the same specification as the LEA spec generally:

 

CPU Intel E7300 core 2 duo 2.66 GHz

Memory 2GB DDR2/800

CD/DVD DVD/RW

HDD Western Digital 120GB 7200 SATA

Graphics nVidia Geforce GF7200GS

Keyboard Generic UK Keyboard and USB scroll wheel mouse

Sound Generic Audio output & microphone for each user

Operating System Windows XP Pro

Tower case Antec NSK4000

Power Supply Antec Earthwats EA500 80+

Motherboard MSI P7N SLI Platinum

USB Hub Targus ACH93EU 4 port USB Hub for each user

Warranty 1 year NBD

Multiseat engine SoftXpand 2.10.164

 

I am continually amazed at how schools use SoftXpand, the savings they make on an ongoing basis, and the improvements in the skills of the children.

 

As with regards the RM argument in this discussion, the facts are that you will be locked in, if you modify anything you will not be supported, and the costs are significantly higher than those offered by VARs and other vendors. We know this because we are helping our VARs quote side by side and I've been astonished at the price differences.

 

Thanks for thinking about SoftXpand though. The common feeling in the beginning is that it couldn't possibly offer the proposed performance which is soon overcome once they see/try/use SoftXpand. The single point of failure can be solved in sooooooo many ways. Put it this way, why were buses invented?

[synaesthesia]

When will CC4 work?

 

Now. SR1 has made a very noteable difference in performance and stability terms.

[Tallwood_6]

Thanks to Andy D for answering your queries. Education is a huge market for SoftXpand because it is the only system of it's kind capable of handling high graphics intensive and mutlimedia applications.

 

Energy savings would not be offset by improved hardware because the hardware follows the same specification as the LEA spec generally:

 

CPU Intel E7300 core 2 duo 2.66 GHz

Memory 2GB DDR2/800

CD/DVD DVD/RW

HDD Western Digital 120GB 7200 SATA

Graphics nVidia Geforce GF7200GS

Keyboard Generic UK Keyboard and USB scroll wheel mouse

Sound Generic Audio output & microphone for each user

Operating System Windows XP Pro

Tower case Antec NSK4000

Power Supply Antec Earthwats EA500 80+

Motherboard MSI P7N SLI Platinum

USB Hub Targus ACH93EU 4 port USB Hub for each user

Warranty 1 year NBD

Multiseat engine SoftXpand 2.10.164

 

I am continually amazed at how schools use SoftXpand, the savings they make on an ongoing basis, and the improvements in the skills of the children.

 

As with regards the RM argument in this discussion, the facts are that you will be locked in, if you modify anything you will not be supported, and the costs are significantly higher than those offered by VARs and other vendors. We know this because we are helping our VARs quote side by side and I've been astonished at the price differences.

 

Thanks for thinking about SoftXpand though. The common feeling in the beginning is that it couldn't possibly offer the proposed performance which is soon overcome once they see/try/use SoftXpand. The single point of failure can be solved in sooooooo many ways. Put it this way, why were buses invented?

 

I'm not sure where you get your facts from with regards to not being able to use softxpand we have a local reseller that has softxpand working with some success on CC3 and i have trialed it out on CC4 and although i couldnt get it running 100% in the limited time i had it i'm pretty sure with a little more time i could get it working reasonably well, or be it without some of the RM rubbish.

I have advised them to speak to RM and possibly invest in a virtual CC3/CC4 network to help with future developments.

You might be more locked down with RM software wise but you are almost as locked down hardware wise with softxpand. I know the machines offered to us feature 3x PCI express on the motherboard with dual graphics, not the kind of spec your likely to get from and OEM.

[Edu-IT]

CC4 comes next week! Fingers crossed for a smooth installation.

[Tallwood_6]

Should be smoother, still runs like crap on the stations even with SR1

[mac_shinobi]

Should be smoother, still runs like crap on the stations even with SR1

 

All I can say is I am steering clear away from anything RM - I would much prefer a normal vanilla installation anyday

[Tallwood_6]

All I can say is I am steering clear away from anything RM - I would much prefer a normal vanilla installation anyday

 

So would anyone with CC4, while everyone else plays with Server 2008 R2 and windows 7 all RM's customers are stuck with server 2003 and XP SP2 and vista sp1 for the forseable future.

I think it will all be getting ripped out and replaced with vanilla next summer unless RM sort there act out.

[Edu-IT]

There's always going to be the divide between people who like and people who hate RM.

[synaesthesia]

Will admit the difference SR1 is making to one of my CC4 schools (others not been upgraded yet) is quite tangible. Still unhappy that some rather important changes promised have yet to be made, but performance and reliability has increased tenfold.

 

 

wow, I'm having a great day. Answered my own question before finished typing the bloody post, and now i'm just repeating what I've already said.

 

Think I'm getting old. Someone pass the pipe and slippers :|

Edited August 15, 2009 by synaesthesia

[sparkeh]

all RM's customers are stuck with server 2003 and XP SP2 and vista sp1 for the forseable future.

 

Or Win7 at Xmas?

[PiqueABoo]

while everyone else plays with Server 2008 R2 and windows 7

 

"Plays" being about right imnsho.

 

I contemplated moving from a 2K8 to 2K8 R2 base for a production system I'm implementing soon, but quickly decided against that - it was mostly OK but there were a few gotchas for me in the RC, including support with various 3rd party bits and bobs. I'd rather wait for an easier life when things like that have caught up, there's a bit more knowledge of arcane areas out there on the net etc. And I'm still happy enough with relatively undemanding XP on the desktop, especially given that I know all the apps I want to run on it will run on it. Win7 is something I'll look at next year.

 

Basically I don't have a "business case" for 2K8 R2 or Win7 for this scenario i.e. I don't think it's in the user's interest (a bit like a CC3 to CC4 upgrade). There are other scenarios where I do e.g. Hyper-V R2 failover clusters, but that's not notoriously run-of-the-mill school stuff.

[russdev]

Or Win7 at Xmas?

 

As my right right honourable friend has said Win7 currently about go to testing .

 

In CC4 it is quite easy to add OSs into the install process in theory you could even plug in a linux os install into it.

 

Russ