FMS migration - access to data beyond migration

[jtcoops]

We just received the below from ESS

 

On-premise: As a result of your cancellation, access to locally installed SIMS and/or FMS software and database will be disabled at 07:00 on Monday 7 April 2025 (where it is not under a valid live contract effective from 1 April 2025).

 

Is this just bluster or do they have a way of nuking the database remotely? We do not have direct support from ESS.

 

Given there is no way to transfer historical data from FMS this puts us in direct breach of HMRC regulations to have access to 6 years worth of accounts. I get they own the IP for the database but the data is ours?

 

It is already a VM so I can make additional copies and keep it sandboxed but given we are migrating 31/3/25 we need to retain access into the next financial year for vat returns etc.

 

We have already moved to Arbor, FMS is going to Access. The intention was remove FMS from all devices but keep a local install on the SQL server VM which we would power on when required to run post year end reports for the local authority and for the vat etc.

[BKGarry]

We kept FMS but I can confirm that SIMS you can just search a child's name, you can no longer open the record or anything, not sure what would happen with FMS.

[dgarfield]

How did you both deal with SIMS banning using DB BAK files to migrate platforms?

[TheCookieMonster]

If the VM it's on is in your ownership/control then they can only access it to disable it if (1) it connects to external services to work which they control or (2) they have remote access in some regard.

 

(1) is not in your control but (2) is - you can just deny them access. You should probably talk to Arbor. I know Bromcom offers coverage of legal costs if ESS come after you. Arbor may do the same or can offer help, just hope it isn't a 'brand new customers only' deal.

 

I doubt they'd 'nuke' the db, as in erase it. You're the data controller, not them. ICO wouldn't be happy.

[jtcoops]

Will you be keeping FMS now they have doubled the price to cover the Sims you no longer use as well? This has caught a number of schools by surprise at a time when budgets are cut to the bone. ESS really are digging their own ending with this tactic.

[tobyhacker]

Are you able to run a Data Export for a Subject Access Request etc. in SIMS still or is it totally locked down at the end of the contract? I was under the impression that we would still be able to do this post contract but based upon the email (as OP stated) we received today, it sounds like this isn't going to now be possible.

[Fin]

Check your audit requirements, but when we left FMS (although this was a number of years ago) we had most of the information available in other forms (paper copies of VAT submittals, paper invoices) and a lot of stuff on spreadsheets, that we had submitted to the LA as part of our returns, but I think we also pulled out 12 months of the CEA report too. Do you do your CFR return in the system because I have heard of that causing issues if you don't get the update if you are out of contract?

[amartin]

We just received the below from ESS

 

On-premise: As a result of your cancellation, access to locally installed SIMS and/or FMS software and database will be disabled at 07:00 on Monday 7 April 2025 (where it is not under a valid live contract effective from 1 April 2025).

 

Is this just bluster or do they have a way of nuking the database remotely? We do not have direct support from ESS.

 

Given there is no way to transfer historical data from FMS this puts us in direct breach of HMRC regulations to have access to 6 years worth of accounts. I get they own the IP for the database but the data is ours?

 

It is already a VM so I can make additional copies and keep it sandboxed but given we are migrating 31/3/25 we need to retain access into the next financial year for vat returns etc.

 

We have already moved to Arbor, FMS is going to Access. The intention was remove FMS from all devices but keep a local install on the SQL server VM which we would power on when required to run post year end reports for the local authority and for the vat etc.

 

Did you manage to find out any more information on this?

[jtcoops]

On 18/03/2025 at 11:45, amartin said:

 

Did you manage to find out any more information on this?

Yes.  ESS Nuked FMS remotely at midnight on the day of contract expiry.  Luckily we did a snapshot of the VM the day before as had to do a VAT return and run off CFR reports.  Basically ESS deny you access to your own data, despite it being a legal requirement to be able to access 6 years of finance information on demand by HMRC.  

 

The only work around is to sign a new 3 year contract to include SIMS FMS and Parentpay - which they are now bolting in.  We have moved to Arbor and don't use parent pay.

 

Another school down the road which has maintained FMS despite moving to Arbor and dropping parent pay 3 years ago has just received their renewal - £9,000 per year rather than the £1600 they were paying just for FMS.

 

Its time schools partnered up against this appalling company.  The government needs to wake up to this company robbing schools of tax payers money.

[PotNoodleTech]

This is shocking - but like I have said before everything in the last 24 months is all a cash grab from a company with a dying product.

[ITGuyNW]

I have asked to organise a meeting regarding our MIS and reading threads like this is like I'm marching towards a forest fire.

[mikes]

Wow how did they nuke the data?  Our LEA dialled in and disabled all of the SIMS services, but kept the actual DB, on the date of our contract expiry. (Our LEA managed SIMS). So in an emergency they could dial back in, re-enable the services, and our data would still be there.

 

But one of the schools under this LEA kept a VM copy of the SIMS server, and boot it up without any networking at all, the SIMS server still works fine - can look up records, run reports, it runs just like it did normally. Can't see how they would nuke it unless they were remote managing it?   Haven't tried FMS but the DB etc appears untouched for it.

I'm not sure if I can recommend keeping a VM copy without networking as licenses might not cover it but I'd feel better knowing I had that backup  and it is solely to check data that might have been missed during a very rushed migration.

[drutt]

I wouldn't be surprised if ESS released in one of their updates, since setting up the SIMS/FMS to call home for licencing, to also self-destruct at contract expiration if no new key is found.

Edited April 7, 2025 by cnewstead

[Aftab_Ahmed]

I am absolutely disgusted with ESS tactics.

We moved away from SIMS and planned to move away from FMS a year later.

I got in writing from them that it would work fine.

Given year end took place for April- they disabled some key features via an update and we now were unable to complete year end.. and guess what - they are forcing us to sign a 3 year contract at double the cost of other finance systems out there.

They need to be taken to task on this and a bloody good job in schools moving away from them as they trying to screw schools over now they're only 40% and losing more within the education sector.

 

[Bromcom_John]

On 07/04/2025 at 12:50, mikes said:

Wow how did they nuke the data?  Our LEA dialled in and disabled all of the SIMS services, but kept the actual DB, on the date of our contract expiry. (Our LEA managed SIMS). So in an emergency they could dial back in, re-enable the services, and our data would still be there.

 

But one of the schools under this LEA kept a VM copy of the SIMS server, and boot it up without any networking at all, the SIMS server still works fine - can look up records, run reports, it runs just like it did normally. Can't see how they would nuke it unless they were remote managing it?   Haven't tried FMS but the DB etc appears untouched for it.

I'm not sure if I can recommend keeping a VM copy without networking as licenses might not cover it but I'd feel better knowing I had that backup  and it is solely to check data that might have been missed during a very rushed migration.

As far as I am aware they (ESS) operate this via the licence key. I don't know the actual technical were with all as to how they achieve this but, if your system is still connected to the web on or after the licence expiry then the licence key deactivates and effectively returns your install to a basic or non functional state.
You are more than likely correct in your assertion that any locally retained copy is NOT covered by your ESS licence.

In my experience schools that have been hit by this when moving over to our finance solution have ensured that they have appropriate backups (in some cases paper ones) to fulfill any ongoing reference/audit requirements.
I am not one of our Finance solution experts though so have no idea what the details of those requirements actually are.

[jtcoops]

There is a way around this to get access to your data.  I'm wary of posting it here as ESS are scummy enough to be trawling these forums looking for schools who have migrated from Sims to Arbor with a view to making accusations of how the data has been transferred, so its not beyond them to monitor this thread as well.

 

Aftab - we worked together years ago at Stockley - not sure I can DM you here but if there is a way of you letting me know how I can contact you direct I can give you the insights to how you can do your year end and not pay ESS anything further.

[m.b]

We moved away from SIMs last year, but now cant access any old data.  I still have access to the DB via SQL but have no idea how to access the old data and linked documents.  I thought that we would have had access to the old data after the contract ended.  Anyone know of a way around this issue?

[Spookyville]

We have given notice and our FMS contract finishes on 31/03/26. Already up and running with Access but have the same query around the previous 6 years of data.  

[TooOld4This]

It will be the school's responsibility to run any required reports and print off any information you may need prior to the end of your contract as Parent Pay don't offer a Read Only service for FMS. Once your contract ends, all SIMS/FMS software will need removing from your system.

 

 

[mikes]

Wouldn't you still legally have access to the SIMDOCSTORAGE etc ?  - though I think it is encrypted now, in the past you could access documents this way - just via browsing in Windows - no SIMS software running at all.  And could you not use SQL manager to access the databases legally? (not that it would be at all feasible doing it this way)

 

[Spookyville]

Thanks for the replies so far. The contract termination is for FMS only, looks like for our sins we are staying on SIMS (I know...) It was a query from the FD initially. 

[mavhc]

ParentPay wants to charge us £600 for moving to a new MIS for their sync thing, which is literally the worst program ever (single threaded GUI? Windows 1.0 was better than this)

 

So we're leaving ParentPay

[jtcoops]

ESS will make it as hard as possible for you in any way you try and cancel services.

 

The very fact that the data within FMS is legally your data, and there is a legal requirement to be able to access it for 6 years, ESS' approach is that to do that you must pay them the full subscription including Sims regardless of whether you need it or not for those 6 months otherwise they will lock you out of your data.

 

It needs a collective of schools to oppose this, go up against them in court, and get the government and media notified about this brutal scam they are running.  

 

There is a way to maintain access to your data - it needs some lateral thinking, and a bit of creativity.  I can't post any more details of the workaround here as ESS scour these forums being the gutter rats that they are.

[mavhc]

I assume all this was in the contract someone signed in the first place without reading

[drutt]

I remember reading that after the SIMS exodus of 2024 ESS implemented some sort of backdoor / self destruct function into their system that would delete their software/your data after the end of contract date.

 

Glad we moved before that, although we've only had cause to access old data a handful of times since.