Stage Lighting Condemned - what next?

[dgsmith]

Although not too surprising, our hall and stage lighting has failed the safety and electrical checks and is no longer to be used. Broadly speaking, it dates from the 80s and possibly early 90s, but certainly 30+ years old. In an ideal world, we'd just replace the lot with a new LED-based system, but I know we simply cannot justify the cost when the impact to exam results is negligible, at best. The funding is just not there, but we're now left without any kind of lighting at all.

 

What options do we have realistically? Is there any kind of grant or targetted funding we could explore to help towards the cost of looking at a replacement system? It would essentially be starting from scratch, including all fittings and lighting bars, wiring, desk etc. If we're realistic, it may be that any kind of approach would have to be modular with perhaps just a handful of lights in the first instance. What sort of cost ballpark should we be considering?

[3s-gtech]

We did ours in a modular way. Out old lighting was the same - 1980s, filament lamps, unbelievable heat from them (they set off the fire alarm with smoking dust from sitting for a while). Used to blow lamps regularly needing a scaffold to replace.

 

The controllers died, so I switched to DMX controlled dimmers with the old lights. These did a few years then started to fail, but we then had a desk etc, so could replace the lights one by one. We wired in an array of 13A sockets so that the LEDs could be wired in using the existing power cables, also meaning we could access fuses etc easily at the patch panel.

 

Then we bought more LEDs as budget allowed. Moved to a better desk. Expanded. We now have two nice systems that didn’t cost the earth (hall and Drama) where we can move the desk between them.

[elsiegee40]

@robk this sounds like one for you?

[robk]

What exactly has failed?

 

Rigging, electrics or all of the above?

 

Has it actually failed or just been condemned by someone wanting to replace...

[pete]

Electrical work (Lighting) could be covered under a Condition Improvement Fund bid, especially if you have other electrical works done at the same time.

 

If you have a lot of old (non-LED) lighting around the school, you may qualify for a SALIX loan that could also be used to refurbish stage lighting.

 

We use these people: https://www.s2e.org.uk to help write our bids.

[dgsmith]

Thanks for the responses. It has been declared as electrically and structurally unsafe following a thorough full day inspection. Yes, the company offer the services of new systems installation too, however it has been made clear that funding for that is not available, and the preference was always to try and salvage or repair what we could. The reality is that, despite inheriting an array of slightly younger light fittings and PAR cans which we hoped could be swapped with our existing ones, the underlying system isn't fit for purpose. No aspect was considered as being safe for continued use.

 

We have already had a full electrical rewire done 12-18 months ago with LED lighting installed throughout (by full, half the school, where the hall/stage is). This didn't factor in the stage lighting, as it's fairly niche and specific, so no preliminary or even future-consideration work was done here, besides a new electrical feed to the dimmers. In hindsight, we'd have had the inspection 2-3 years ago and then had some of the fundamental electrical work (mains wiring) added on for future stage lighting upgrade, but this wasn't thought about.

 

School has no contingency funds for this, certainly not a whole-system replacement and it can't be argued that there will be any tangible benefit to exam results, as the department has their own smaller-scale rig for classroom/exam use. A modular approach seems most realistic, but still seems to necessitate a considerable initial outlay to lay the ground work. Just not really sure if we have any hope at all...

[speakercon]

Have you used the company that did the inspection previously? Seems abit odd that they've condemned both the electrics and 'structure' (which I assume is the lighting bars?)

 

Unless the electrics were done pre mid 1960's its unlikely the cabling will be VIR and will be T&E so unless its been messed with other the years not sure how it can suddenly become unusable - did they provide any more detail on why the electrics failed and what they tested?

 

Same with the lighting bars, unless they were done incorrectly to start with or messed with further down the line seems a little odd too. Did they load test them?

 

Not saying they might be exaggerating the problems to get the refurb job... but a second opinion might be a good idea.

 

Do you have any photos you could share of the dimmers / lighting bars?

[PotNoodleTech]

Yes we've had exactly the same here - ultra old lights (90s or before) and about 50% of them have been condemned and disconnected.

 

We just don't have £20k+ spare to get a company in.

[speakercon]

Yes we've had exactly the same here - ultra old lights (90s or before) and about 50% of them have been condemned and disconnected.

 

We just don't have £20k+ spare to get a company in.

 

Did the lanterns fail their PAT test?

 

If this is the case and you still have working IWB's/dimmer's you can replace the fixtures quite cheaply with PARs/Fresnel's.

[Andrew_C]

ultra old lights (90s or before) and about 50% of them have been condemned and disconnected.

ULTRA-OLD?? Lanterns from the 60's/70's will still be usable, possibly needing a re-furb, and will outperform LEDs in SO many ways. Yes, you CAN get high performance LED lanterns with framing, focus and gobo projection, but these are £thousands. Cheap LED par cans are better if you only need to throw some colour around.

 

Did the lanterns fail their PAT test?

If this is all that is wrong, have them repaired. Possibly out of a different budget?

[Chris_Cook]

Old doesn't necessarily mean bad, but there are plenty of dodgy installs out there, especially from the 80's and 90's. Some are obvious, some look ok until you realise its all running off a 32a supply when it should be 4 times that or more.

 

Mice can get into the cabling and eat away the insulation. Electronics in dimmers can go bad. Insulation in some fixtures can deteriorate with heat, especially if they've been rewired incorrectly and wires routed wrongly.

 

We've got some Patt 23 spots still in use (I think from the 50's) but they've been re-wired properly. Its a shame they don't have the stands with them as they would probably pay for the new installation if we sold them.

 

The cost and time of re-wiring lights generally isn't feasible for schools these days, unless you know someone.

 

Starting from scratch, I'd really recommend getting an expert in to look and come up with a plan. Its far too easy to get something that's rubbish, or has little life left in it when it would be better to have put the money towards something better. There's a lot of junk on the market especially with LEDs.

 

It would be a good idea to look at what the system will be needed for. If you only need spotlights for assemblies and talks, or a stage wash. You could add more later.

 

You might be able to get your electricians to fit a couple of LED Spots bolted to the ceiling, and do the power and data (DMX can be run over Cat5e or better, and is more future proof with Art-net and similar technologies.)

 

A little 6 channel desk or architectural wall mount DMX controller might be a start for the control. Old Avolites Pearls aren't that pricy on ebay, but parts are getting harder to find. I'd generally avoid an older lighting desk as the faders will probably need replacing. Again, faders are getting harder to find. You also need to know someone who knows how to solder. The Zero 88 FLX range are good if you want something that's going to last, and work well with LEDs.

 

You might be able to go somewhere like David Fitch Services and see what they have in terms of second hand equipment. There are some good deals out there, but get some advice from someone who knows what they are looking at.

[Techie-v2]

Following with interest.

 

We had our bars inspected and load tested yesterday. 2 out of 7 failed due to bolt heads stripping off when tightened but like above, it is an ancient install of 40 odd 15amp ties lines into dimmers. I'd love to be able to replace at least some fixtures with LEDs. We already have a nice desk that can be moved from the drama space to the main hall when required. The cost though is unjustifiable as the system is not used for curriculum based activities, just open evenings, concerts and some performances that are too big for the drama studio.

 

I've searched for funding grants but the ones I've found and forwarded to the relevant people have either been not looked into or shot down.

[robk]

So speaking in very general terms... We had (& have) I very similar problem. Our hall nearly passed its first inspection (failed on the wrong safety's in use, so we swapped them).

 

Our drama studio failed as the fittings used by the installers were not load rated, but the bars have not fallen in the 10 years prior to inspection (don't ask...) so we have taken that risk.

 

Electrically The Drama studio also failed due to 2 RCDs (no discrimination in protection) which again isnt dangerous. We have on record a report from the school's electrical contractors (who didnt fit this supply) covering that fact!

 

Worth looking at whats there, and risk assessing what its actually failed on. Assuming there's some power and the possibility of a DMX cable to the bar, LED lighting can be easy to fit, and very low power..

 

I have gone for pc control with a wifi link back to an artnet to DMX box. means I can do simple stuff on a kindle, bigger stuff on Chamsys MagicQ.

[dgsmith]

Have you used the company that did the inspection previously?

 

Not for this kind of work specifically, as it's never really been inspected/tested (in my time anyway), though they have worked in other schools in the trust. I know one of the chaps is active on these forums, and may well be aware of this thread (and will certainly know who I am!) We have no reason to challenge the assessment and trust they would have advised if anything remained electrically safe. That said, it's still very disappointing, if perhaps not overly shocking. We're not an arts school, nor have frequent hall rentals requesting the lighting system, so the demand comes just from open evening (and sometimes not even that) and the occasional show/production, which in some cases recently even they have done without.

 

The ideal was to salvage some degree of operation, even if reduced capacity, and try and cost in a gradual modular shift towards LED, whether that be wiring, structure or a desk in stages. Now, it seems to be everything at once or do without.

[Will.B]

Maybe an ideal step forward is getting some portable T bars and LED washes and spots - with wireless DMX links... same as Tarleton

Less work and cost than rigging up a whole new ceiling system, and very modular.

[PotNoodleTech]

Did the lanterns fail their PAT test?

 

If this is the case and you still have working IWB's/dimmer's you can replace the fixtures quite cheaply with PARs/Fresnel's.

 

I think so bit the problem is I am not sure why - the wiring or the lantern itself?

 

I wouldnt be against keeping the lanterns if they are still able to be made to work - maybe supplementing with some new multicolour LEDs around the edges of the hall and stage, and we deffo need a new DMX system as the old one is literally sliders zero automation or programming.

[nicholab]

I think so bit the problem is I am not sure why - the wiring or the lantern itself?

 

I wouldnt be against keeping the lanterns if they are still able to be made to work - maybe supplementing with some new multicolour LEDs around the edges of the hall and stage, and we deffo need a new DMX system as the old one is literally sliders zero automation or programming.

 

I used to do lighting with a guy in my church for Christmas and we used very few lights for amazing lighting. The key was enough white light with two moving fixtures for colours.

Edited October 28, 2023 by nicholab

[PotNoodleTech]

I used to do lighting with a guy in my church for Christmas and we used very few lights for amazing lighting. The key was enough white light with two moving fixtures for colours.

 

Yeh that sounds good - ours is pre-anything-moving and pre-anything-changing-colour lol

[speakercon]

I think so bit the problem is I am not sure why - the wiring or the lantern itself?

 

I wouldnt be against keeping the lanterns if they are still able to be made to work - maybe supplementing with some new multicolour LEDs around the edges of the hall and stage, and we deffo need a new DMX system as the old one is literally sliders zero automation or programming.

 

 

What dimmers do you have? Most of them can be connected to a demux which converts DMX to 0-10V analogue so you can use a modern programable lighting controller with older dimmers.

[SamanthaD]

What dimmers do you have? Most of them can be connected to a demux which converts DMX to 0-10V analogue so you can use a modern programable lighting controller with older dimmers.

That might get the old dimmers working but if the wiring is condemned then it's an issue getting the dimmed power out to the fixtures - socapex isn't cheap!

 

 

I'd suggest looking for some secondhand Alphapacks - able to be powered of 13a and can be controlled on the dimmer pack or via DMX. A few of those, some T-bar tripods and a bit of DMX to link it all up and you're old fixtures can breathe again...

 

If you're stuck for a control solution the I use ChamSys regularly. The MagicQ PC software is free to download and play with, you can set up a visualiser as well dead easy (load a demo show), the dongle to get a universe worth of DMX is £90 with VAT and there's no licensing issues. Loads of tutorials online and support available, all you need is a machine to run it on (Windows, Mac OS and Linux are all supported).

[nicholab]

That might get the old dimmers working but if the wiring is condemned then it's an issue getting the dimmed power out to the fixtures - socapex isn't cheap!

 

 

I'd suggest looking for some secondhand Alphapacks - able to be powered of 13a and can be controlled on the dimmer pack or via DMX. A few of those, some T-bar tripods and a bit of DMX to link it all up and you're old fixtures can breathe again...

 

If you're stuck for a control solution the I use ChamSys regularly. The MagicQ PC software is free to download and play with, you can set up a visualiser as well dead easy (load a demo show), the dongle to get a universe worth of DMX is £90 with VAT and there's no licensing issues. Loads of tutorials online and support available, all you need is a machine to run it on (Windows, Mac OS and Linux are all supported).

 

You could put a temporary dimmer on the bar with temporary feed from a 13amp socket per dimmer. I seen 4-6 lights and two moving fixture used to do the lighting required. Simple can work you don’t have to have the lighting rig as used by Queen.

[Colt_phil]

Maybe look at purchasing the absolute essential amount of lights to get by, probably 6 LED wash lights will be enough for an average stage because they are made up of RGB,W,A & UV rather than using single colour gels.

 

You can easily add to the system when budget allows, sounds like investment is well overdue.

 

Not sure where you're based but we recently used a company from Merseyside and the lights cost approx £200 each and a new lighting desk was also around £200. I'd imagine £3k or so would get you up and running with a modern LED DMX system.

[PotNoodleTech]

Thanks all I need to do some serious youtube watching into this as I have not got a clue about DMX dimmers etc etc