Would you join a Professional IT Association?

[Kitkatninja]

Hi All,

 

I know that back in 2012 (yes 11 years ago), I asked a similar questions. But I was looking for a more up to date snapshot of our sector (IT).

 

Would you join a professional association, eg the BCS, IET, (ISC)2, etc...? Are you a member?

 

Do you see a need for it? Or don't you see a need for it? Is it too expensive?

 

The reason why I'm asking this again is for my studies, so if you could give your views, that would be great

 

Thanks

[DalekSec]

Been in IT 10 years, i'm now the ripe age of 30. I still don't know what a professional association does.

 

Is it like the masons? you have meetings and a special handshake?

 

Voted 'No - Other' as said above, no idea what they actually do.

Edited May 22, 2023 by DalekSec

[Garacesh]

I can pretty much only parrot the 'I don't actually know what they.. Y'know.. Do.' sentiment... I did look at ANME but some of the questions they were asking, no thanks! Smacked very much of monetised data collection (or ad spam, or both..)

 

I have edugeek and great out-of-work relationships with plenty of professional contacts. Good enough for me!

Edited May 22, 2023 by Garacesh

[Steve21]

See I’m slightly different opinion wise

 

I’m a MBCS (and MS MCTP/MCP etc) and just look at it like Union fees, a small daily tax (50p or so for BCS) that it’s there if you need it, eg looking fancier for job applications etc

 

Same with unions, hopefully it’s never needed but it’s there for when it is

 

Steve

Edited May 22, 2023 by Steve21

[mavhc]

MIET, TMIET Member (MIET) and Technician Member (TMIET) Institution of Engineering and Technology

 

When you become an ICTTech, it demonstrates to your employers and clients that you have had your competence independently assessed, your credentials verified and it shows that you have the commitment to Continuous Professional Development (CPD).

 

£179/year

 

MBCS £152

AMBCS £25

Chartered IT professional: Application fee £160, annual fee £46

 

Not sure if you'd get both

[steve]

I was in BCS for a while, but my employer stop paying for it. I'm not overly sold on their charter so won't pay my own money.

 

Personally I think they've helped set IT back in schools a bit by shifting focus to discreet computer science from general IT skills.

[Primus]

I was in BCS for a while, but my employer stop paying for it. I'm not overly sold on their charter so won't pay my own money.

 

Personally I think they've helped set IT back in schools a bit by shifting focus to discreet computer science from general IT skills.

 

Indeed many of us at the time used expressions such as "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" and "be careful what you wish for".

 

Have CS by all means, but having CS doesn't mean we have to remove IT/ICT - I say that as an experienced teacher with a CS background.

 

Little by little the qualifications we have available to us have shrunk and had really good components removed, we've seen a steady decline in students wanting to complete the limited qualifications that are left and the challenging nature of CS means there aren't enough teachers willing or able to teach it whereas lots of them were probably quite at home teaching GCSE ICT for example.

 

The attitude at the time from BCS was very led by people who seemed to specialise in telling serving practitioners what both the problems were and the solutions whilst sticking their fingers in their ears when those practitioners tried to put them right.

[Roberto]

CS and ICT are very much different fields and both are necessary. This is an over simplification I know but just because the study of physics is a thing, that doesn't mean we don't need mechanics and electrical engineers who are expert in the applied principles.

 

I'm a BCS CITP fwiw and I do strongly believe in the overall message - I see lots of people who work in IT complaining that the "IT Profession" is not taken seriously. That's a valid criticism but equally there needs to be a will and a way to 'close the circuit' on our end too and I see professional organisations with guidelines, training and standards baked in as a way to do that. A way to raise the level of the IT Profession as a whole, as well as the individuals within the profession.

 

This isn't about saying that people who are not currently in a professional association are not behaving professionally, rather that joining one is a way of underwriting the standards and professionalism you already have.

Edited May 23, 2023 by Roberto

[mavhc]

The difference is everyone has a computer and anyone who has interest can quickly become one of the top 1% of humans at using computers, and then get hired

 

To be an engineer you need to get degrees so you don't make bridges that kill people.

 

In the middle ground is the electrician/gas engineer/builder, also has to not kill people, and there's laws about that because of the whole killing people thing.

 

Do you want to be forced to pay to go on training courses, to tell you obvious things you already know, to become a legal IT technician, and get paid more. Or would you rather just do your own thing and get paid more because you learned things yourself that are useful to companies?

 

Would anyone who's an IT manager here want to pay for £30/hour IT technicians because they've been on a course, vs £20 ones who haven't? Is that course worth 50% extra money to you?

[mikes]

Yeah that's the thing, if it wasn't mandatory (which it will never be) - I can't see a school or even a business willing to pay £30 an hour for an IT Tech when they can get away with paying £8.50 an hour for someone straight out of college. Even if that lower paid technician is a clown and costs them a lot more than the £30 an hour tech's wage ever would - PHB's don't think that way and will still pat themselves on the back for saving the wage money.

[mavhc]

Until they get ransomwared or GDPR'd

 

This does bring us to the second level of the system, not all people building your house have the same qualifications, should the school be required to have one accredited IT Manager, and they will supervise and train their apprentii?

[john]

I've been a BCS member for years, it's fully tax deductible as well so I get my fee back through my tax code as its officially recognised on the HMRC list so costs nothing in the end.

 

Benefits of it not mega sadly I don't find but had some interesting meet ups in the past and did help at some job interviews.

[Roberto]

Until they get ransomwared or GDPR'd

 

Well this is the thing. Quite a lot of organisations (not just edu) don't appreciate the high cost of doing things properly until they've tasted the higher cost of getting it very wrong.

 

This does bring us to the second level of the system, not all people building your house have the same qualifications, should the school be required to have one accredited IT Manager, and they will supervise and train their apprentii?

 

Putting aside the question of what such accredation may look like, its not unreasonable. A solicitor may have a number of assistants working for them who are not fully qualified legally, whose work is constrained by guidelines and overseen by the solicitor - a large conveyancing office might have lots of people who are well respected experts at certain aspects of what that office does without being a solicitor. As you allude to, you don't need to be a chartered engineer or architect to mix cement or carry bricks on a building site, etc.

 

What might be interesting is if having some kind of "accredited IT person" in a management role who was able to sign off on various aspects of the org's IT security position might be required for Cyber Essentials Plus, or would get you a reduction on cyber secutiry insurance premiums, etc.

 

You're also right about education not wanting to pay £30 an hour. That's why I left. I would suggest in a larger academy trust, at least, there may be a call to have one or two highly paid experts providing expertise (and a career goal to aspire to?) centrally for the schools and colleges inside the trust.

 

This links back to the discussions in the devaluing of IT jobs thread again of course: WRT certifications/qualifications/accreditation - an arguement could be made that your employer is never going to value you more highly than you value yourself, which is another reason to tick the box on certs etc. whenever you can. Especially if you already have 90% of the criteria ticked by just doing the job you're already doing.

[chaplic]

Years back I went on a splurge of getting certs so MBCS I joined and and I think it's CITP I got

 

However for me it seemed to bear no resemblance to the world I see and it assumed everyone was a programmer in environments that have strong academic-like discipline . Also, for me working in a micro-firm (3 employees, and I'm lead) the various hoops / development activities were nonsensical.

[visioN]

The BCS is a charity.

 

Some of their salaries seem obscene!

 

Employees with total benefits over £60,000

Number of employees

£60k to £70k 10

£70k to £80k 4

£80k to £90k 2

£90k to £100k 4

£100k to £110k 4

£110k to £120k 2

£130k to £140k 1

£150k to £200k 2

£250k to £300k 1

[Roberto]

The BCS is a charity.

 

Some of their salaries seem obscene!

 

Employees with total benefits over £60,000

Number of employees

£60k to £70k 10

£70k to £80k 4

£80k to £90k 2

£90k to £100k 4

£100k to £110k 4

£110k to £120k 2

£130k to £140k 1

£150k to £200k 2

£250k to £300k 1

 

All of those are in line with what I would expect experienced IT Professionals to earn. 10 well established engineer/coders, for example; 4 senior engineers/coders; management structure up to CEO level. Nothing "obscene" here imo.

[Primus]

I've been a BCS member for years, it's fully tax deductible as well so I get my fee back through my tax code as its officially recognised on the HMRC list so costs nothing in the end.

 

Benefits of it not mega sadly I don't find but had some interesting meet ups in the past and did help at some job interviews.

 

Has that changed as I think previously you only got back the tax you had paid on the fee rather than the whole fee?

[mavhc]

What software are they writing?

[localzuk]

I know its a bit of a chicken and egg problem, but at the moment, in education, I can't see a huge amount of value of a professional association unless schools recognise that association and see membership as an advantage.

 

Schools have a habit of hiring IT staff based on cost alone, so being a BCS or $other society member seems like it wouldn't be of much value to school IT staff.

 

Now, a school IT staff focused union, or division of a union would be a good thing - existing unions don't seem to be overly interested in us lot.

[RichCowell]

I did look at ANME but some of the questions they were asking, no thanks! Smacked very much of monetised data collection (or ad spam, or both..)

It was neither - the stats collected back then were collated and shared with all members to see what others were using, and as an indicator different setups and teams in other schools... No raw data is/was ever shared, and nothing is/was used to target emails etc.