Is there any MIS for secondary schools that comes close to SIMS

[Chris_Cook]

What I noticed with usability is having worked at a Bromcom school none of the specialist areas had gone for training. I am talking Exams Office and Timetabler had not done the training and said SIMS was better when that what they had had training on in the past.

 

Training is a key part of usability, have you main user base been trained how to use it in an every day contexted? You then need to make sure power user keep there hand in and get the right training and reference materials. The biggest issue being is that MIS system are a closed shop it very hard to get you hand on reference material unless you have the right access to a support contract.

 

It one of the key school system but there never seem to be time for training in using it.

 

 

This is key. Also getting key office staff + SLT in on the decision process. There will be staff doing things with Sims that you may not even have thought about.

 

Having been through this process over the last 6-12 months, I would have liked to take a lot more time over the decision. When we've spent time with Arbor getting different parts setup correctly and doing training/brainstorming sessions about how we want to use it, we've had much better feedback from staff. The short migration time forced onto us by ESS really didn't help, but being part way though the tender we didn't want to get stuck with sims for 3 more years.

 

Both Arbor and Bromcom are going to work differently to sims, so its important to make sure these differences aren't going to impact daily operations negatively. There are some real benefits to some of these differences, especially with some of the documentation around Exams and Census. I feel like I understand these areas much better after half an hour of reading the Arbor docs, even if I was to go back to Sims.

[Linfit]

This is key. Also getting key office staff + SLT in on the decision process. There will be staff doing things with Sims that you may not even have thought about.

 

This. Most of our engagement involved the support staff who actually use SIMS all day every day to really look at the software and what it could do. We had SMT in one or two sessions but they need the outputs, not a detailed understanding of the mechanics of the system. We were lucky in that the decision was devolved to just two of us, and so we did it bottom up not top down. Its far more important that your Exams Officer, Attendance Officer, HR person are involved than any number of SLT, as they will quickly find out the pro's and con's.

 

I would also echo the point about training - we have done hours of it with key staff prior to going live, but only an hour with teachers - just the basics of taking registers and what they need for the go-live day. the modern systems are fairly intuitive for most staff to do their day to day but a lot of schools think about teacher training but don't think about putting the time aside to allow the support staff to get comfortable with it and explore what it can do.

[nicholab]

It depends on the SLT sometimes they need to think it's their idea as no one could know what staff need as well as them. Even thought sometime they give their staff systems that are like doing your job with you hands tied behind your back.

 

I once saw an MIS review that only looked at going back to SIMS from Bromcom and I knew it was a fait accompli. We should have stayed with Bromcom and sorted the issues. One the issue was that the Bromcom server was onsite not a service which would have had upgrades managed and the server did not have enough RAM it was too processor heavy.

 

I think cloud MIS are like electronic hand breaks in cars and trying to do a hill start with one they are the future and there is no going back.

Edited February 1, 2023 by nicholab

[localzuk]

I suppose I see why you say that, but after spending ages trying to figure out how to get Bromcom to spit out a basic report, the novelty of a pretty GUI wore off quite quickly. Something that I'd worked out how to do in SIMS in a couple of mins. (Only really started to use SIMS about 2 years ago, before that provided it opened alright that was about as far as I got)

Honestly? If you were having issues getting Bromcom to spit out a report, it most likely means you haven't done the training, as the reporting module is fairly simple once you know how to use it.

 

But then again, not many of us get trained specifically in many of the tools we run. So is difficulty using a system the system's fault, or our own for not getting proper training?

[Aprice]

Honestly? If you were having issues getting Bromcom to spit out a report, it most likely means you haven't done the training, as the reporting module is fairly simple once you know how to use it.

 

But then again, not many of us get trained specifically in many of the tools we run. So is difficulty using a system the system's fault, or our own for not getting proper training?

 

Yep, turned out to be some setting that only produced the first 100 results or something like that. Yes you're right I had no training, but equally never had any training on SIMS.

 

I'm not saying Bromcom is terrible and SIMS was the easiest thing ever to use. Just found SIMS a bit easier to use to create reports, which is pretty much all I've ever used either for.

 

As others have said here training is key, from my experience initial training may well have been provided when installed, but what happens for new staff who arrive after?

 

Now the market is shifting from SIMS having a massive majority to a wider split over several vendors, more staff come through the doors with only experience of a different system.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Aprice

[localzuk]

As others have said here training is key, from my experience initial training may well have been provided when installed, but what happens for new staff who arrive after?

 

Bromcom have a library of webinars people can watch at any time. But realistically, its up to the school to ensure their staff are trained. We buy into secondary support through our LEA MIS team, which includes a yearly training package.

[CROOKE]

Do you mind me asking, we are moving from SIMS to Bromcom in the next few weeks - i am new to the school and my roles as exam office and data manager; i am just finalising exam entries for Summer 2023 using SIMS, do you know if i will be able to upload the results into Bromcom or would i need to keep SIMs for this?

very early stages of training in all systems so very unsure at the moment

[localzuk]

If you have switched, you'd want to upload it into Bromcom - running 2 MIS's simultaneously is a recipe for disaster.

 

However, if all the data is already in SIMS, it should be migrated during the move to Bromcom by the Bromcom onboarding people.

[David44]

Updates aren't really a problem (a bit of work for the helpdesk for a few days every four months, but mostly they just work - - and our RDS server is there for anyone whose local sims install isn't working during the first hour of the day after an update because they took their laptop home last night, against advice).

 

Is a product that causes some extra work but mostly works good enough? Is asking users not to take laptops home three days a year an acceptable request?

[CHiLL]

Do you mind me asking, we are moving from SIMS to Bromcom in the next few weeks - i am new to the school and my roles as exam office and data manager; i am just finalising exam entries for Summer 2023 using SIMS, do you know if i will be able to upload the results into Bromcom or would i need to keep SIMs for this?

very early stages of training in all systems so very unsure at the moment

We moved from SIMS to Bromcom last summer. Our procedure was that Bromcom took a snapshot of the SIMS data at the start of the move, meaning we had two active MIS systems. However, we were told to keep updating data in SIMS, rather than Bromcom. Since this happened over a period of June-September, any new year 7s, exam results, etc were entered into SIMS and then a final export was done from SIMS into Bromcom at the end of summer. Once that was completed and verified, we fully switch to Bromcom as our sole MIS.

 

Your Bromcom migration/support team will be able to clarify what you should do. Moving MIS is a multi-week process, so if you're only starting the process in February half term, it might be near Easter before it's complete.

[psydii]

Is a product that causes some extra work but mostly works good enough? Is asking users not to take laptops home three days a year an acceptable request?

 

Having seen how two large universities and three large enterprises handle remote access and the updating of their fleets of laptops and LoB applications, we're doing pretty darn well.

 

Also, staff don't seem too upset that three nights a year I tell them they can't work from home. This year we have a timetable structure that every two weeks allows us to push out updates without interrupting work or requiring laptops to be left on site, so it is even less of a problem.

 

I have run an MIS migration in the face of SLT ambivalence. so I'm not going to push for a migration *because* of these minor inconveniences, but I wont object though if there is a push to move to another MIS without this limitations.

[mthomas08]

It very much depends on how you define 'better'. However that being said, I do think that almost everyone who uses an alternative to SIMS would say they're a vast improvement over it.

 

Sadly I wouldn't say we're one of them.

 

Left SIMs to go to Bromcom and I still get staff wanting to go back to SIMs. This includes the data manager /attendance / behaviour teams.

From what I understand with the attendance problem, it has something to do with the 'mass' daily function of sending to multiple parents at once. They spent a bit of time on the phone with Bromcom and the conclusion is.. can't do it like the SIMs way.

The data manager.. I think she moaned about a similar thing, a quick function that existed within SIMs doens't in bromcom.

 

I advised both of them to put it in the ideas area.

 

One thing I can specifically say and this isn't down to the MIS comparison, is how EduLinkOne is far better on getting parents onboard and the ease of parent evenings.

[localzuk]

Left SIMs to go to Bromcom and I still get staff wanting to go back to SIMs. This includes the data manager /attendance / behaviour teams.

From what I understand with the attendance problem, it has something to do with the 'mass' daily function of sending to multiple parents at once. They spent a bit of time on the phone with Bromcom and the conclusion is.. can't do it like the SIMs way.

The data manager.. I think she moaned about a similar thing, a quick function that existed within SIMs doens't in bromcom.

I think this is part of the issue that many schools face when moving MIS. They always frame everything in terms of "it was done XYZ way before". As we're buying off the shelf software, I'm afraid we end up having to adapt to how that software works. Before SIMS existed, schools didn't do things the SIMS way either... Practice changed to fit the system. This is where strong leadership and good training are important - ensuring the end results achieve goals, even if the mechanism to get there is a bit different.

 

Whilst some aspects of Bromcom don't do things the way we would like, other aspects are far easier than SIMS ever was. So, its very much swings and roundabouts.

[msi_school]

Whilst some aspects of Bromcom don't do things the way we would like, other aspects are far easier than SIMS ever was. So, its very much swings and roundabouts.

 

I totally agree with this point, an individual member of staff who only uses one part of the MIS may find that the SIMS way was better or just that they where used to it. However, across the whole school I believe that there are a number of systems that are better than SIMS.

[nicholab]

School staff never seem to have had to change software eg they went from school to school and got SIMs. Where as if you worked in other business you will have changed software.

[AlistairB1983]

School staff never seem to have had to change software eg they went from school to school and got SIMs. Where as if you worked in other business you will have changed software.

This, combined with a mind set of never trying to understand WHY things work they way they do, rather just accepting that's how it's done because that's how it's always been done. If staff understood why they were doing things they way they were, it would enable them to better adapt to a new way of doing things when the software they used changed their normal routines, even if just slightly.

[ajp233]

Do you mind me asking, we are moving from SIMS to Bromcom in the next few weeks - i am new to the school and my roles as exam office and data manager; i am just finalising exam entries for Summer 2023 using SIMS, do you know if i will be able to upload the results into Bromcom or would i need to keep SIMs for this?

very early stages of training in all systems so very unsure at the moment

 

You will be able to import results into Bromcom even if there are not any associated entries.

[nicholab]

This, combined with a mind set of never trying to understand WHY things work they way they do, rather just accepting that's how it's done because that's how it's always been done. If staff understood why they were doing things they way they were, it would enable them to better adapt to a new way of doing things when the software they used changed their normal routines, even if just slightly.

 

This is totally true we seem to to be the only ones asking how and why.