DfE Connecting the Classroom project funding

[RedwayNetworks_Michael]

So we're eligible for this now - The answer I had for this was that the priority is serving WiFi 6 access points with multigb. If you have switches that serve other equipment (eg phones/CCTV/desktops and so on) they don't care about those & likely won't fund replacement of those. So you may end up with seperate switch stacks in your edge *solely* for the wireless provision, unless you top up the funding yourself.

 

They will run 16 core OM4 fibre to your edge switches however.

 

I suspect in reality you might get away with a bit more than just the wireless provision, but that's their priority. Reading between the lines, it's clear they're setting schools up for 1:1 provision going forward.

 

 

Correct, they are only interested in the wireless parts of the network, however when designing there are sometimes cases where there is no way to avoid them.

 

As WaveLEE mentions above its all alittle backwards really and as a supplier we do the justifications for the schools to DfE. As long as everything can be justified to reason we have found the program quite ok and quite speedy too with DFE

 

I imagine once the money pot gets smaller they may get tougher.

[FreelanceX]

Thanks for the responses.

 

We are the IT support for the schools in question, so in response to supplier/customer, we are both. We have a vested interest in the school getting their best bang for buck so to speak. We will be the ones supporting it going forward. I am aware it is purely WiFi switching only and the 16 core fibre. The only part i'm still trying to nail down is the switching.

 

The reason i was asking about what switches others have had approved is, I don't want to be unreasonable with what switches we propose to the DFE and get declined, but I also want to make sure we aren't missing out on getting the best possible equipment for the schools.

 

Looking at 2.5gb switches with 10gb uplinks does put you into the realm of 5 figures, so just wanted to make sure I am being reasonable.

[RedwayNetworks_Michael]

Thanks for the responses.

 

We are the IT support for the schools in question, so in response to supplier/customer, we are both. We have a vested interest in the school getting their best bang for buck so to speak. We will be the ones supporting it going forward. I am aware it is purely WiFi switching only and the 16 core fibre. The only part i'm still trying to nail down is the switching.

 

The reason i was asking about what switches others have had approved is, I don't want to be unreasonable with what switches we propose to the DFE and get declined, but I also want to make sure we aren't missing out on getting the best possible equipment for the schools.

 

Looking at 2.5gb switches with 10gb uplinks does put you into the realm of 5 figures, so just wanted to make sure I am being reasonable.

 

 

Its a case of following the guidelines and been able to justify anything that may be slightly out of that.

I would recommend reaching out to a specialist that has done CTC projects.

 

Feel free to reach out if want to discuss any further

[StevieM]

I received an email, last week, inviting us to claim funding...again!

 

This was followed by a swift retraction the next morning.

[j_mcg]

Hi all, I came across this funding at the end of last week when looking into something else. How can you apply for funding as it looks like it is different requirements to the 2021 scheme?

 

Any advice is appreciated

[Wave9_Lee]

Hi all, I came across this funding at the end of last week when looking into something else. How can you apply for funding as it looks like it is different requirements to the 2021 scheme?

 

Any advice is appreciated

 

Where's the school? Funding is focussed on the Education INvestment Areas at the moment https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/education-investment-areas-selection-methodology . Oxford is not included by the look of it.

[XiJ]

I’ve seen 80k for a small primary school. It’s a great spec but massively overkill. Could do 4 schools to a great standard with that.

[Boredguy]

We had a spec for WiFi, Switches and Backbone for 1 of our sites, and it's majorly overkill in some respect.

16 core Fibre runs to each of the new PoE switch locations to give 2 x 10Gb Backhauls. Could easily just run 8 Core and still have upgrade future expansion over the other 4 pairs.

It certainly isn't the WiFi system I would have picked and it needs to use their own switch gear to get the bandwidth to each AP (which is in every single classroom, hate to think of the channel fights on the 2.4Gh range but at least they can reduce power which might throw heatmap estimates out a bit)

 

It's almost as if because it's grant funding they want to throw the kitchen sink at it instead of whats needed to actually do it to a normal standard we would all expect.

[atcoates]

Hi all, I came across this funding at the end of last week when looking into something else. How can you apply for funding as it looks like it is different requirements to the 2021 scheme?

 

Any advice is appreciated

Schools don't apply for funding for this scheme. If you are eleigible you will be directly contacted by the DFE.

 

Is your LA listed here? https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1063088/Priority_EIA_selection_methodology_FINAL.pdf

 

You can also email here to check [email protected]

[Ditto]

I've just responded to another post on this topic. I'm picking up that some schools over speccing the work unnecessarily - making it sound like a money grab! My point is this, if you do get involved in projects funded by this scheme, please don't unnecessarily over spec the work. There's going to be a finite pot of money for this work, and every school that abuses DfE weakness in holding to account, will in the longer run deprive other schools of the money.

[DJ_MonkeyBoy]

I've just responded to another post on this topic. I'm picking up that some schools over speccing the work unnecessarily - making it sound like a money grab! My point is this, if you do get involved in projects funded by this scheme, please don't unnecessarily over spec the work. There's going to be a finite pot of money for this work, and every school that abuses DfE weakness in holding to account, will in the longer run deprive other schools of the money.

 

That's the problem. They would have been better off giving the schools a fixed sum and letting them sort it out. But like most techs, they will be filling their boots with over spec equipment.

Edited December 9, 2022 by DJ_MonkeyBoy

[IT_JB]

I've just responded to another post on this topic. I'm picking up that some schools over speccing the work unnecessarily - making it sound like a money grab! My point is this, if you do get involved in projects funded by this scheme, please don't unnecessarily over spec the work. There's going to be a finite pot of money for this work, and every school that abuses DfE weakness in holding to account, will in the longer run deprive other schools of the money.

 

The project needs to meet the DfEs spec, it's not the schools making the decision here. It's misleading to suggest that people are abusing this, when there is sign-off against a strict spec at all project stages.

[atcoates]

That's the problem. They would have been better off giving the schools a fixed sum and letting them sort it out. But like most techs, there will be filling their boots with over spec equipment.

 

The DFE has to approve the submissions. They know that some schools will try and take the mickey, they will have their submissions rejected and will have to resubmit. The DFE has a rough idea of what each school would require. They also know what hardware the majority of schools are ordering. Schools can only purchase hardware that matches the DFE criteria. This is a 10-year solution for schools so needs to provide for the future, not now. We already have some WiFi 6 APs and as part of our submissions, we aim to re-use this in quieter areas to keep the costs to the DFE down.

[DJ_MonkeyBoy]

IT suppliers and external support rubbing their hands with glee, thinking of their profit margins for sure. Fragment the market with academisation, and feed the money into private hands. Opps I got political!

[RedwayNetworks_Michael]

IT suppliers and external support rubbing their hands with glee, thinking of their profit margins for sure. Fragment the market with academisation, and feed the money into private hands. Opps I got political!

 

They are not quite so straight forward, there is a lot of work to be done before even submitting the quote as well as onsite surveys, this takes alot of resource. (no charge to school or shouldn't be at least at this stage)

It is then a case of making sure you get the best for the school with the requirements, then once submitted we then often have a call with DfE to help justify anything they may query. (Cabs is usually something)

 

The requirements are high spec but that's not down to the suppliers, working with a trusted IT partner would be best way.

I am sure there is the odd ones as you say rubbing hands but the majority should i would hope are doing their best to help the schools through this process.

[mavhc]

So after highly speccing these devices with 10Gb fiber etc, is there a) a requirement to have 10Gb or 100Gb internet to make use of such connections, and b) is there a minimum lifespan of the devices getting security updates?

[Ditto]

The DFE has to approve the submissions. They know that some schools will try and take the mickey, they will have their submissions rejected and will have to resubmit. The DFE has a rough idea of what each school would require. They also know what hardware the majority of schools are ordering. Schools can only purchase hardware that matches the DFE criteria. This is a 10-year solution for schools so needs to provide for the future, not now. We already have some WiFi 6 APs and as part of our submissions, we aim to re-use this in quieter areas to keep the costs to the DFE down.

That's reassuring to hear.

Edited December 9, 2022 by Ditto

[DJ_MonkeyBoy]

They are not quite so straight forward, there is a lot of work to be done before even submitting the quote as well as onsite surveys, this takes alot of resource. (no charge to school or shouldn't be at least at this stage)

It is then a case of making sure you get the best for the school with the requirements, then once submitted we then often have a call with DfE to help justify anything they may query. (Cabs is usually something)

 

The requirements are high spec but that's not down to the suppliers, working with a trusted IT partner would be best way.

I am sure there is the odd ones as you say rubbing hands but the majority should i would hope are doing their best to help the schools through this process.

 

Yes, to be fair there are some decent suppliers and IT support companies out there. As you say they have to operate within the Dfe framework. But I still can't help but think that this is taxpayers' money. If funding wasn't there then any IT company would not be putting this type of equipment in a one-form primary school. It could be easily be done at a fraction of the price, with solid reliable kit, which would run for 5 plus years, and by then schools would be considering some replacement again anyway. But it is what it is...

[RedwayNetworks_Michael]

Yes, to be fair there are some decent suppliers and IT support companies out there. As you say they have to operate within the Dfe framework. But I still can't help but think that this is taxpayers' money. If funding wasn't there then any IT company would not be putting this type of equipment in a one-form primary school. It could be easily be done at a fraction of the price, with solid reliable kit, which would run for 5 plus years, and by then schools would be considering some replacement again anyway. But it is what it is...

 

Oh this i completely agree, ive had some cases where we would have been better off due to how the networks are laid down to use a different switch in specific cabs but have had to use the main ones that they want us to use which in quite a few cases has resulted in new cabs to fit the switches just as an example.

 

I think the idea is by doing this now they wont need to change anything again for quite along time, based on this i dont imagine this program happening again anytime soon was funding is finished.

As a supplier if i put forward a solution like these requirements to a primary school im pretty sure id get laughed at and never hear from them again. Budgets sadly play a large part in education as im sure everyone on here will understand.

 

For the schools that have been invited and had the installs done have got themselves a great network and those schools are in a good place for the forceable future.

 

Could they have cut the spec a little to have more budget for more schools, i think yes but it is what it is i suppose and i dont imagine its going to be available too much longer.

[RedwayNetworks_Michael]

So after highly speccing these devices with 10Gb fiber etc, is there a) a requirement to have 10Gb or 100Gb internet to make use of such connections, and b) is there a minimum lifespan of the devices getting security updates?

 

If im correct (im not always but i try) there was a DfE program back a few years now pre pandemic that was doing the phone lines, i believe this is a type of follow up to that, i find alot when first working with a school they usually have either a fast network with slow internet or fast internet with slow network so i do see your point with this. I suppose what CTC does enable is for schools wanting to upgrade internet speed will have the network to deal with it.

 

In regards to lifespan for the devices and security updates the 2 main vendors(only 2 i think worth putting forward) is Aruba and Meraki, based on the requirements by DfE both need to be licenced, the licences cover all the updates for the period of the licences, the requirements are minimum 5 years. Meraki do an offer on 10years that customers take so are covered for those 10 years as the licence covers all updates aswell as the vendor support.

 

I hope this helps a little,

[DJ_MonkeyBoy]

If im correct (im not always but i try) there was a DfE program back a few years now pre pandemic that was doing the phone lines, i believe this is a type of follow up to that, i find alot when first working with a school they usually have either a fast network with slow internet or fast internet with slow network so i do see your point with this. I suppose what CTC does enable is for schools wanting to upgrade internet speed will have the network to deal with it.

 

In regards to lifespan for the devices and security updates the 2 main vendors(only 2 i think worth putting forward) is Aruba and Meraki, based on the requirements by DfE both need to be licenced, the licences cover all the updates for the period of the licences, the requirements are minimum 5 years. Meraki do an offer on 10years that customers take so are covered for those 10 years as the licence covers all updates aswell as the vendor support.

 

I hope this helps a little,

 

Yes, Meraki all the way. It's networking we will never be able to afford, unless the Dfe cough up again in 10 years. Which, I hope they do as replacing this kit again with the same updated devices will be astronomical.

Just out of interest, what about the other Cisco switches and wifi, do they meet the Dfe spec? They also have perpetual licensing, is this correct? I know the Catalyst 1000 range of switches has no licensing. What about the SME wireless switches?

Edited December 9, 2022 by DJ_MonkeyBoy

[Wave9_Lee]

So after highly speccing these devices with 10Gb fiber etc, is there a) a requirement to have 10Gb or 100Gb internet to make use of such connections, and b) is there a minimum lifespan of the devices getting security updates?

 

I think the point of a 10 year licence is that they get updated/patched/warranty for much longer than has usually been the case. And yes, can absolutely see 10GB internet in a large secondary school in the next 3-5 years. The spec looks overkill for now, but that's what futureproofing requires.

[Wave9_Lee]

They are not quite so straight forward, there is a lot of work to be done before even submitting the quote as well as onsite surveys, this takes alot of resource. (no charge to school or shouldn't be at least at this stage)

It is then a case of making sure you get the best for the school with the requirements, then once submitted we then often have a call with DfE to help justify anything they may query. (Cabs is usually something)

 

The requirements are high spec but that's not down to the suppliers, working with a trusted IT partner would be best way.

I am sure there is the odd ones as you say rubbing hands but the majority should i would hope are doing their best to help the schools through this process.

 

This. DFE are processing hundreds of these, so know line by line what kit should be charged at and what acceptable percentages are for cabling and cabinets. Suppliers have to put forward justification for the decisions made in the design. It woudn't take long for a supplier to get a bad rep if they were quoting for unnecessary work.

[DJ_MonkeyBoy]

I think the point of a 10 year licence is that they get updated/patched/warranty for much longer than has usually been the case. And yes, can absolutely see 10GB internet in a large secondary school in the next 3-5 years. The spec looks overkill for now, but that's what futureproofing requires.

 

Out of interest do these products fit the Dfe spec and requirements? No licensing required?

 

Wifi: https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/solutions/small-business/networking/wireless.html

 

Switches: https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/products/switches/catalyst-1000-series-switches/index.html

[DrCheese]

Yes, Meraki all the way. It's networking we will never be able to afford, unless the Dfe cough up again in 10 years. Which, I hope they do as replacing this kit again with the same updated devices will be astronomical.

Just out of interest, what about the other Cisco switches and wifi, do they meet the Dfe spec? They also have perpetual licensing, is this correct? I know the Catalyst 1000 range of switches has no licensing. What about the SME wireless switches?

 

This was our problem with PFI - Metric tons of money thrown at us to replace everything but zero real thought of how we'd be able to replace it when it reached end of life. It's always been an annoyance of mine that money can't be set aside yearly so that when a device comes for replacement it's already allocated for.

 

This funding is great of course, just have to hope that funding exists in ten years to do it all again

Edited December 9, 2022 by DrCheese