The credit crunch

[SpuffMonkey]

I like Sainsburys - it keeps the riff raff out of Waitrose

[Sirbendy]

teas what we used to have when we got home from school when we were kids.....waffles, smiley faces that type of thing ..

 

Rock on, that man. I recall it well. Can we go back to those day? I liked them.

[witch]

Thank you chrrb - you have said pretty much everything

I do think that the current situation re house prices is appalling and I am very sorry for anyone starting out today. Do remember, Torledo, that people like chrrb and I have children who willl soon be looking for somewhere to live - and frankly with salaries/bills etc as they are, we just don't have the money to help them on to the property ladder.

What annoys me is that you seem to think that we are smug about what we have. We also worked very hard to get where we are -as I am sure you do - and I know that the current housing market makes it very difficult for you - more so than in our day - but it wasn't a bed of roses. You seem to hate us because we did find it slighlty easier to buy a house than you - but that isn't our fault, is it?

And what DO you have against the middle classes? I went to a grammar because that's what the education was where I come from (and still is, actually). My children go to comprehensive school as we have a very very good one here - as well as good grammar schools, it has to be said. But I am not keen on selective education, as I am a good left-of-centre, Independent reading person.

I learned the piano when young because my family are very musical and we all play and sing. My piano is indeed a second hand 'church hall' model and I do only play it occasionally as my main instrument is the French Horn.

My husband is reasonably well paid, but worked hard to get where he is, making the decision to leave hardware (he started as a test engineer) because he could see what was happening in the industry. But he works 75 miles away and has to commute for nearly 2 hours each way EVERY day as there is nothing around here at any salary.

So - I think you need to stop and think about why you are so insulting to a group of people who mostly worked hard to get where they are.

I am middle class by definition (I eat dinner!) and proud of it but my dad was the son of an engine driver and clawed his way upwards himself.

As I said, I do see how the housing problem is a huge issue (although as chrrb pointed out, having a house worth a lot of money means nothing if you arent selling) but the rest of it.....

 

As for the childcare system: Unless you have an INCREDIBLY well paid job, most people I know have found that once you have more than one child, it is not worth it to put them in childcare, and so that is why many 'middle class' families have one parent doing Classroom assistant/dinner lady type work.

Of course at the 'top end' of the middle class, there are many people with two incomes, but that is far above most of us.

Edited June 10, 2008 by witch

[somabc]

In my house we call it tea:D are you sure you're not really a closet middle class person because thats quite a middle class expression:)

 

Well traditionally the evening meal has been called several things.

 

(from the book - Amazon.co.uk: Watching the English: The Hidden Rules of English Behaviour: Kate Fox: Books

 

* If you call it "tea", and eat it at around half past six, you are almost certainly working class or of working class origin. (If you have a tendency to personalize the meal, calling it "my tea", "our/us tea" and "your tea" - as in "I must be going home for my tea", "what's for us tea, love?" or "Come back to mine for your tea" - you are probably northern working class.)

 

* If you call the evening meal "dinner", and eat it at around seven o'clock, you are probably lower-middle or middle-middle class.

 

* If you normally only use the term "dinner" for rather more formal evening meals, and call your informal, family evening meal "supper" (pronounced "suppah"), you are probably upper-middle or upper class. The timing of these meals tends to be more flexible, but a family "supper" is generally eaten at around half past seven, while a "dinner" would usually be later, from half past eight onwards.

[chrbb]

Well there you go then I'm working class, we have tea in our house:D

 

@Torledo

Sorry to spoil any stereotyping that middle aged home owners with husbands, pianos, two incomes (although one may be a tenth of the other) and a pair of flip flops is middle class.

You've made assumptions on a particular group of people based on what you'd like to believe, everyone's circumstances are unique and life's difficult enough as it is without someone bemoaning what they haven't got and they perceive you to have.

Edited June 10, 2008 by chrbb

[Sirbendy]

working class too..

[EeEk]

* If you normally only use the term "dinner" for rather more formal evening meals, and call your informal, family evening meal "supper" (pronounced "suppah"), you are probably upper-middle or upper class.

 

Well there you have it...I'm upper-middle or upper class

 

Which must be right as the credit crunch doesn't effect me I have no debt/mortgage/credit everything I own is paid for including my house.

 

My opinion...the people today just starting out are no worse off than I was when I started out.

 

Me, wife, baby lived with my parents in 1 room until we got a council house.

I worked 6 days a week, wife worked 4 hours each night as a cleaner ( no child care vouchers in them days all we got was free cheese and butter from the EU mountains).

 

Still needed 3x my wage + 1x wife’s wage + 10% deposit to get a £20000 mortgage to buy a basic 2 bed terrace. Every penny we had went on "living" extras like a new TV etc were bought with money made doing "homers" at night - used to be a mechanic so always a pound to made at night .

 

Now 25 years on...everything’s paid. I just packed this job in to go back to being a mechanic @£21k a 7k increase. Wife’s worked herself in to a nice $23k council job. Kids are up and one has left home and we have money to burn...even after just spending £4500 cash on a new toy - Honda VFR VTEC

 

Don’t you for one moment think it wasn’t hard getting this far, struggling to find £1 to buy a leccy card, living on turkey twizlers and beans, first holiday we had was when the baby (mentioned above) was 15. ....you people today don’t know what tough is!!! If you cant manage on one wage then quit your boohooing and get 2 jobs. Live on food from farmfoods/iceland, walk, no holidays, no mobile, in fact no phone at all, no sky tv, no nights out, use second hand shops for clothes/kids toys etc etc

 

I’m afraid any one caught by the credit crunch gets no sympathy from me. You should have seen it coming, I did!!

[5tu]

EeEk, you really haven't got a clue of what it's like for the rest of us. £20k on a 2 bed council house mortgage isn't the real world, and doesn't sound very tough to me. People just starting out are now looking at £180k+ for a 2 bed terrace and last time I checked that wasn't achievable by taking a 2nd job anywhere.

[Sirbendy]

EeEK - while I do in some ways agree, I disagree on your "no worse off"...house prices are that insane now that as I say - I'll rent until the proce bombs, then consider my options...right now, even with Jem and I working and on the same wage (which isn't staggering for either of us), we'd have no hope in raising a mortgage.

 

As to the rest - I do agree. We iceland every fortnight (great value for freezer), Holidays - no (unless it's a family wales week using the Sun offer..heh..), mobiles yes, but PAYG..£10/month if that, no fancy TV (just a £13 freeview box, that barely works), no nights out...take the bus, walk if we can (i'm limited in that regard), shop local, look for bargains (like the veg in a box scheme, and buying from our butcher..FAR cheaper than even Tesco)..electric is watched religiously..no standby in my house, everything off or timer based, all lights are the £3 for multipack 9w CFLs..and most of our furniture/electrical kit is second hand or seriously cheap argos wonder.

 

About the only thing that's annoying me is fuel costs..which is why I'm switching to the bus. The weekly shop last week for the first time using the local bits came to £25..for more and better than we could get in Tesco (usually about £40). Electric is a tenner a fortnight or so, gas is a fiver a fortnight.

 

I really do try and see how far it can be pushed..it's a challenge. We have a phone..but 95% of the cost of that is the line rental..sigh..that annoys me.

 

Still..I look at my brother who buys brand name everything, expensive everything...even looked at his accounts (mum's an accountant)..he's always in debt..and I smile. I've never been in debt..I don't intend to be either (except for a possible mortgage in the distant future maybe). I can't say as I feel i'm living a lower standard of life either..we were debating this last night.

 

It's true what you say - look at our grandparents...mine still say "make do and mend", and are incredibly reluctant to spend money unless there really is no other option..people could learn a lot from the older generation (no offence to anyone).

[EeEk]

I think that 20K 25 years ago gybe7

 

Well it was actually 22 years ago...It wasnt for a council house, it was for the only broken down dump we could afford - the council house was too dear!! - the choice was continue paying rent to the council or buy a dump then one day I'd at least own something.

 

If it was 20k now...I'd just write a cheque

 

And yes house prices are stupidly high but then again compared to 22 years ago wages are also stupidly high where everything else has become cheaper (now going up I'll admit)

 

22 years ago it took everything I could raise and a shit load of worry to buy a 2 bedroom dump of a house so why should it be any different today Its only the numbers that have changed...at the end of the week youll have nothing left same as I did, which in my opinion is only fair....why should I have had it tougher than those starting out today

[Sirbendy]

 

And yes house prices are stupidly high but then again compared to 22 years ago wages are also stupidly high where everything else has become cheaper (now going up I'll admit)

 

 

I was commenting as much to the missus (22, bless) last night....heh..

[torledo]

Well there you have it...I'm upper-middle or upper class

 

Which must be right as the credit crunch doesn't effect me I have no debt/mortgage/credit everything I own is paid for including my house.

 

My opinion...the people today just starting out are no worse off than I was when I started out.

 

Me, wife, baby lived with my parents in 1 room until we got a council house.

I worked 6 days a week, wife worked 4 hours each night as a cleaner ( no child care vouchers in them days all we got was free cheese and butter from the EU mountains).

 

Still needed 3x my wage + 1x wife’s wage + 10% deposit to get a £20000 mortgage to buy a basic 2 bed terrace. Every penny we had went on "living" extras like a new TV etc were bought with money made doing "homers" at night - used to be a mechanic so always a pound to made at night .

 

Now 25 years on...everything’s paid. I just packed this job in to go back to being a mechanic @£21k a 7k increase. Wife’s worked herself in to a nice $23k council job. Kids are up and one has left home and we have money to burn...even after just spending £4500 cash on a new toy - Honda VFR VTEC

 

Don’t you for one moment think it wasn’t hard getting this far, struggling to find £1 to buy a leccy card, living on turkey twizlers and beans, first holiday we had was when the baby (mentioned above) was 15. ....you people today don’t know what tough is!!! If you cant manage on one wage then quit your boohooing and get 2 jobs. Live on food from farmfoods/iceland, walk, no holidays, no mobile, in fact no phone at all, no sky tv, no nights out, use second hand shops for clothes/kids toys etc etc

 

I’m afraid any one caught by the credit crunch gets no sympathy from me. You should have seen it coming, I did!!

 

EeEk, first of all i don't mind borrowing four, five times my income, or indeed getting a part-time job to boost income....i'm afraid i don't have the skills to do cash-in-hand work, but i could still boost my income certainely. And i've already got a 15% deposit , the point is, even that isn't enough to afford property today - to get a realistic multiple of x6, x7 it's unlikely a bank would go near you, you'd have to go to a mortgage broker who is going to charge an arm and a leg, not to mention the arrangement fee from the bank which can run into several thousand. Arrangement fees and stamp duty didn't apply in your case.

 

And btw EeeK i've never been abroad on 'holiday', i don't drive at the moment, i don't eat out or go for nights out, i don't have satelite tv, i rarely buy clothes for myself, most of my sons toys are charity shop or gifts from relatives, we don't eat meat that often and yes we shop at iceland or buy own-brand to keep costs down.

 

This whole thread, thanks to chrbb and witch, has descended into a 'which era had it toughest' argument when the point i was making is that some people, yes some homeoweners, aren't feeling the credit crunch today as much as young people are who are looking to get ont he property ladder....absolutely nothing whatsover to do with what things were like 25 years ago. I'm talking about today, and it's not whingeing to say that competition for homes coupled with rising prices has made it difficult for ftb's....

 

buying practically everything these days is a race to beat other people to it...my dad didn't have that problem when he bought his first house for 20-odd thousand 25 years ago....you dont' have to give me the sob story - i saw it first hand, with my dad working 18 hour days, single income, no mod cons....despite all of this, people who bought all those years ago and who've since invested inproperties as landlords KNOW full well that the market is overvalued....it's not a case of earning more to buy expensive property - it's about buying in the right area at the right price, and over the last couple of years that has been increasingly difficult thing to do....i've seen one house in my area that was what i would call good value, and belive me it wasn't cheap...at 150k with modernisaton to be done it would have been perfect for us. I would had to have borrowed at over five times household income and i was prepared to do that - but i got beaten to the punch. Nothing similar has come up for grabs since then. What do you want me to do ? jump in and pay 180k for a house that's going to be worth 160k if the sellers are lucky in 12 months or wait to buy at a reasonable price....i don't give a toss about how much the property will be worth in five years, net gain on property over the ownserhip life is typically 0 when all things are taken into account, i just don't want to buy at the most inopprtune moment imaginable.

 

ftb's want no favours, we're content to be lumbered with a 25-year mortgage, but realistic pricing hasn't been seen in this country for several years. Former head of the federal reseve, alan greenspan, i think said in his autobiogrphy that the uk housing market was 20% overvalued. You'd have to be an idiot to lumber yourself with a property that is so overvalued when you are starting out.

[torledo]

....why should I have had it tougher than those starting out today

 

that line really sums up the overwhelming problem with your generation, if i didn't know full well my father doesn't know a computer from his left buttock i'd say it was he who typed that line...

 

the hyprocrisy of it is staggering, while you lot were sporting kevin keegan perms, did you think about the sacrifices made by previous generations so that you didn't have to put up with quite the same sh*t that they did. Instead you seem to feel the vicious cycle of your era must be repeated for subsequent generations, we will continue to have boom and bust economics in this country because people like yourself want it that way with this kind of attitude.

[Sirbendy]

......if i didn't know full well my father doesn't know a computer from his left buttock ........

 

Oh, now that's a concise summary that has got to go into the all time classic "IT Skills Assessment" handbook..

[SteveT]

Sorry, I've tried to resist but......... :D:D

 

FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:

Aye, very passable, that, very passable bit of risotto.

SECOND YORKSHIREMAN:

Nothing like a good glass of Château de Chasselas, eh, Josiah?

THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:

You're right there, Obadiah.

FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN:

Who'd have thought thirty year ago we'd all be sittin' here drinking Château de Chasselas, eh?

FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:

In them days we was glad to have the price of a cup o' tea.

SECOND YORKSHIREMAN:

A cup o' cold tea.

FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN:

Without milk or sugar.

THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:

Or tea.

FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:

In a cracked cup, an' all.

FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN:

Oh, we never had a cup. We used to have to drink out of a rolled up newspaper.

SECOND YORKSHIREMAN:

The best we could manage was to suck on a piece of damp cloth.

THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:

But you know, we were happy in those days, though we were poor.

FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:

Because we were poor. My old Dad used to say to me, "Money doesn't buy you happiness, son".

FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN:

Aye, 'e was right.

FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:

Aye, 'e was.

FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN:

I was happier then and I had nothin'. We used to live in this tiny old house with great big holes in the roof.

SECOND YORKSHIREMAN:

House! You were lucky to live in a house! We used to live in one room, all twenty-six of us, no furniture, 'alf the floor was missing, and we were all 'uddled together in one corner for fear of falling.

THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:

Eh, you were lucky to have a room! We used to have to live in t' corridor!

FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:

Oh, we used to dream of livin' in a corridor! Would ha' been a palace to us. We used to live in an old water tank on a rubbish tip. We got woke up every morning by having a load of rotting fish dumped all over us! House? Huh.

FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN:

Well, when I say 'house' it was only a hole in the ground covered by a sheet of tarpaulin, but it was a house to us.

SECOND YORKSHIREMAN:

We were evicted from our 'ole in the ground; we 'ad to go and live in a lake.

THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:

You were lucky to have a lake! There were a hundred and fifty of us living in t' shoebox in t' middle o' road.

FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:

Cardboard box?

THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:

Aye.

FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:

You were lucky. We lived for three months in a paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six in the morning, clean the paper bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down t' mill, fourteen hours a day, week-in week-out, for sixpence a week, and when we got home our Dad would thrash us to sleep wi' his belt.

SECOND YORKSHIREMAN:

Luxury. We used to have to get out of the lake at six o'clock in the morning, clean the lake, eat a handful of 'ot gravel, work twenty hour day at mill for tuppence a month, come home, and Dad would thrash us to sleep with a broken bottle, if we were lucky!

THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:

Well, of course, we had it tough. We used to 'ave to get up out of shoebox at twelve o'clock at night and lick road clean wit' tongue. We had two bits of cold gravel, worked twenty-four hours a day at mill for sixpence every four years, and when we got home our Dad would slice us in two wit' bread knife.

FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN:

Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah.

FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:

And you try and tell the young people of today that ..... they won't believe you.

ALL:

They won't!

[Guest theeldergeek]

I was having a conversation with a teacher today, we got onto the subject of money. This is what happened:

 

Me: so how has the credit crunch affected you?

Teacher: It hasn’t I have weetabix for breakfast

Me: Oh **Walks off**

 

Are these people for real?

 

Methinks you is having a bad day....

[witch]

 

This whole thread, thanks to chrbb and witch, has descended into a 'which era had it toughest' argument when the point i was making is that some people, yes some homeoweners, aren't feeling the credit crunch today as much as young people are who are looking to get ont he property ladder....absolutely nothing whatsover to do with what things were like 25 years ago. I'm talking about today, and it's not whingeing to say that competition for homes coupled with rising prices has made it difficult for ftb's....

 

 

Hey, that's not fair! Actually you started the argument by making unfair comments about those you perceive to be middle class. All we were trying to point out is that, house prices aside, we did not start out with the things we have now, and we had to work very hard for them.

We NEVER suggested that we had it tougher than you, it was just that your comments implied that we were smug and had got it all easily.

I stated that house prices are a real problem, and I will say again that although it was tough to buy some years ago, we could do it if we really tried, which is much harder today.

BUT, how is it that the people who own a house (with a mortgage, as previously stated) are insulated from the credit crunch? I know that mortgages may be a bit more difficult to come by, but surely falling house prices/repossessions etc can only be good for someone in your position?

[chrbb]

the hyprocrisy of it is staggering, while you lot were sporting kevin keegan perms, did you think about the sacrifices made by previous generations so that you didn't have to put up with quite the same sh*t that they did. Instead you seem to feel the vicious cycle of your era must be repeated for subsequent generations, we will continue to have boom and bust economics in this country because people like yourself want it that way with this kind of attitude.

 

Presumably you've said all this to your Dad, aka the previous generation to you, who by working a 18 hour day made sacrifices to give you a home?

 

Have you thought about going into politics and actually trying to do something about the economy or do you just prefer to blame others?

 

In fact it would probably be an idea for this thread to be locked by the moderators, your posts are becoming increasingly insulting and personal.

Edited June 11, 2008 by chrbb

[FN-GM]

Ok I think this thread has run its course. Please can we end this matter and not continue? I think we are all mature enough to move on.

[torledo]

Presumably you've said all this to your Dad, aka the previous generation to you, who by working a 18 hour day made sacrifices to give you a home?

 

Have you thought about going into politics and actually trying to do something about the economy or do you just prefer to blame others?

 

In fact it would probably be an idea for this thread to be locked by the moderators, your posts are becoming increasingly insulting and personal.

 

i don't disagree that the thread should be locked, although isn't it interesting how you point out it should be locked AFTER you try and sneak the last word in.....

 

what i find disconcerting is you do the whole smiley face thing in one paragraph and then try and stick the dagger in the next. Talk about iron fist velvet glove, or whatever the term is. Think it's you who should be going into politics, you'd fit right in as a brown babe.....that's the type of trick they pull on a daily basis.

 

to repsond re the 'previos generation' comment. I'm beginning to think my father made those sacrifices for himself, so that he could get on and accumilate. As i said, if the actions of the generation previous to us was about giving the next generation the best possible start in adult life then i don't think we would have the current housing crisis aswell as the issue of social mobility.

Edited June 12, 2008 by torledo

[chrbb]

Actually the smiley face thing is to lighten the subject slightly!

 

I'm beginning to think my father made those sacrifices for himself, so that he could get on and accumilate. As i said, if the actions of the generation previous to us was about giving the next generation the best possible start in adult life then i don't think we would have the current housing crisis aswell as the issue of social mobility.

 

My and my husband's sacrifices were made to feed, clothe and house our children, not to accumalte wealth for ourselves. Our savings, meagre as they are, are destined to help them buy their first properties. Everything we have, we have as a family.

 

There no smiley faces!

[Sirbendy]

eee...when I were a lad, down t'pit we'd have banged your heads together and said "play nice, kiddies"...

[somabc]

Hesiod quotes

 

I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on the frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words. When I was a boy, we were taught to be discrete and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise and impatient of restraint.

 

~700 BC

[Sirbendy]

hah...so it's not just the "kids of today" then...impressive!

[russdev]

i think we will agree that i am right and move on...

 

What we talking about again...

 

Ok as main op and other parties involved in discussion/debate/ dam right fisticuffs have said lock it I will

 

Russell

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