Bicycle gears

[mikeprice]

OK - seriously not an IT thing but whatever

 

I have recently (see ebike thread) 'acquired' (legally) a Raleigh Motus ebike - it turns out that there are several version of this

I have the basic version which has 'dérailleur gears - as $deity intended

 

but the more expensive versions have the option of either hub or 'proper' gears

and to be clear - by proper gears I mean those ones that hang of the right hand side (in the UK - other countries may vary??) so any intelligent person learns as a teenager that the bike get dumped on the floor (because that is how a teenage boy parks a bike) on its left hand side

 

Clearly these are superior to the alternative - which in my experience solely means the old 1970s 3 speed Sturmey-Archer 3 speed hub gears

which my Raleigh Elite had - which weighed about the same as a main battle tank

and my mate (name removed to protect him) had on his weird Chopper clone that always ripped the cable into bits due to a gear shift with about a 50-1 mechanical advantage (really?? - on a bike designed for teenage boys???)

hence all hub gears are hopeless

and - to be fair - in those days the 3 speed hub was useless compared with 'proper' derailleur gears with 5 - or even 10 - gears - like my wonderful Peugeot road bike - which some toerag stole from my garage many years later

 

 

Hence - I am rather biased about bike gears

now - it turns out that some people have problems with Raleigh Motus hub gears. Mostly in regard to the lack (up to the 2020 model???) of a chain tensioner - which I have never seen

and - apparently - ebikes have a tendency to stretch chains - but this is irrelevant with 'proper' gears as they automatically tension the chain

 

 

 

so - back to the point ( you knew there would be one eventually)

 

I was wondering what a group of sensible and intelligent people think of modern bike gears??

have hub gears got over the old 3 speed hub stuff and gone past the deraillleur concept??

I know hub gears are heavier - but they also keep clean and don't get muddy

 

so I thought I would ask you lot

( insert jokes about not being able to find sensible and intelligent people here)

 

 

any opinions or experiences???

 

 

 

 

 

 

note to self - in the of $nameforpitoffire look up how to spell dearilleur properly - Firefox spell checker really isn;t helping!

[hardtailstar]

Single speed. That's a proper gear!

[Saladin]

Hub gears are popular for commuters due to not having to clean the bike as much, less maintenance and also being able to change gear whilst stopped. Hub gear bikes also tend to come with the chain guards out of the box so no oily calves when you arrive at work.

Whichever type of gears you have got on an e-bike, get ready to start pedalling like you are back on your Raleigh Elite when the battery runs out!

I think 1x group sets are best nowadays for most people. Easy to maintain and keep clean for commuting and a good range of ratios for longer leisure rides.

[jmak]

You like a can of worms don't you [emoji57]

 

Hub gears have come a long way since Sturmey Archer 3 speed. Shimano have a range (aimed at commuters) which have up to 11 speeds and take disc brakes. However they're heavy and there's no option for user maintenance. Also if you damage a wheel, you'll need a replacement hand built onto the same hub which isn't a cheap prospect. They're missing a truck by still using an oily chain. I've thought for years that a drive belt would be much better; no mess, less wear, quieter, but they've never caught on.

 

They're also up against incremental improvements on a design that's over a hundred years old: I went from a five speed with manual down tube shifters on my first proper bike when I was about 10 through first generation indexed thumb shifters 15 speed, then trigger shift 27 speed and now I'm back to 11 speeds single chain ring on my latest bike. I thought every one was brilliant when I got it and can't believe that you can have an 11 speed block that's accurate with a really skinny chain and a ridiculously shallow dish on the rear wheel that's reliable and doesn't break every time you hit a bump. After a crash last year, I bent the derailleur beyond repair, fixed it up as a single speed to get to a bike shop (10 minutes) and then replaced the whole mechanism in another 20 minutes. All good as new and continued with my ride.

 

Having said all that, I reckon this is the future:

https://www.bikeradar.com/news/shimano-gearbox/

 

For those without time to read: gear box built into frame near bottom bracket (crank set) with option for integrated motor assist and then belt drive to rear wheel with single fixed gear. Shimano reckon they can make it light enough to fit to road bikes. Unfortunately I'll probably be on a mobility scooter or in my autonomous flying car before it actually happens...

[Garacesh]

The e-bike I picked up recently has.. I have no idea what kind of gears.

 

It has has the chunky tube in the middle of the rear wheel indicative of a gear hub.

... but then it also has the bit that hangs down, and multiple different sized cogs, so it's clearly a dérailleur.

 

So I ain't got a clue what the hub-looking-thing is for.

Edited January 24, 2020 by Garacesh

[mikeprice]

Thanks for that

 

I am now confused!

 

I will try reading it again later on - very interesting but very detailed. Certainly seems like hub gears are moving forward!

[mikeprice]

Single speed. That's a proper gear!

 

I have never understood people for ride those things - except on flat places like tracks!

(OK tracks are banked - but you know what I mean)

[jinnantonnixx]

First off, I ride a single-speed to work (with a KMC BMX chain) and a good quality mountain bike with a 1x11 on weekends.

 

I'm a fan of single-speed, very simple and cheap, no gear cables and the chain tends to last longer as you can buy tough BMX chains that maintain a straight chainline.

 

 

Edit: You can see my single speed adapter here. I still use the same bike daily, I've had it for seven years and do 12 miles a day on it. I estimate it's done over 20,000 miles. That's an indication of the reliability of single-speed.

http://www.edugeek.net/forums/general-chat/99718-cycling-work-18.html#post1136273

 

 

But a derailleur, when properly adjusted and with good cables, is simple and very reliable. Spend 10 minutes on Youtube learning how to adjust the alignment and the end stoppers and most problems will be resolved quickly with a screwdriver. After a while, you'll need to change the gear cable. A simple job and your gears will run like new.

 

On to hub gears - I was seduced by the apparent simplicity and reliability of the hub system (with back-pedal braking) so I got a wheel with a Shimano Nexus 3 speed. What an utter disaster that was. Putting it simply, it's not built for Welsh weather. Throw in some gritty canal paths, and the thing was ruined in three months. I attempted to change the bearings so I downloaded the schematic to see what was involved. I had to double-check to make sure I hadn't downloaded the schematic for the space shuttle. In a nutshell - forget it. It's a specialist service item, if you can find anyone to service it. The seals were pretty much non existent, the bearings had largely disintegrated even after a short period. I ended up chucking it and getting a regular single speed wheel (dished for a cassette, but with a single-speed adapter). My frame has track-ends so I can adjust the chain tension as it wears.

 

 

So, not a fan of the Shimano Nexus hubs. I wouldn't consider a (leisure-priced) hub bike for anything other than recreational, dry weather riding. Of course, you can get Rohloff hubs, but they're a different class and price range.

Edited January 24, 2020 by jinnantonnixx

[mikeprice]

I thought the main point in hub gears was that they were reliable and didn;t need to be fiddled with

 

seems like your experience was vastly different.

 

not that I'm thinking of changing - but when possible I ride mostly on canal and foot paths - and the main road need to use to get anywhere is always covered in mud and grit - so that makes it sound like they would be a problems

 

but, on the other hand, I was reading a review of gear systems last night that clearly claimed that hub gear systems were fully sealed and never need maintenance - which I was confused about as they all need some sort of changing mechanism that would seem to NOT be fully sealed so as to allow it to move in and out

 

This is something I need to read up on. Still not going to change though - mostly because fiddling with a bike is as good a way of spending a sunny summer afternoon as I can think of - except for riding the bike (obviously)

[Andrew_C]

The future is... this?

 

[mikeprice]

The future is... this?

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]56491[/ATTACH]

 

makes sense - having a chain with links move against each other all the time is bound to have some friction

 

seems to need a lot of development before it can take on the current concepts

 

there do seem to be moves towards a drive belt rather than a chain - I think the GTech ebike has one but it doesn;t seem to have caught on yet

[jinnantonnixx]

I thought the main point in hub gears was that they were reliable and didn;t need to be fiddled with

 

seems like your experience was vastly different.

 

 

 

My escapade into the world of hub gears was a huge let-down. The seals on the hub were poor and the bearings ground down. Stripping the outer hub case revealed that the grease had turned into a muddy grinding paste and the bearings were totally shot. A huge disappointment. I replace and re-grease the bearings on my simple cup'n'cone bearings once a year and they're still going strong. A little pitted, perhaps, but many years left.

 

As for hubs being "fully sealed and never need maintenance", I seriously doubt that. Smells like marketing to me.

[jinnantonnixx]

makes sense - having a chain with links move against each other all the time is bound to have some friction

 

seems to need a lot of development before it can take on the current concepts

 

there do seem to be moves towards a drive belt rather than a chain - I think the GTech ebike has one but it doesn;t seem to have caught on yet

 

Interesting axle mechanism. But I think people forget just how efficient a chain is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_chain#Efficiency

 

Carbon belt drives look interesting, but they either need a frame re-design to install through the chainstays or a joining mechanism. Don't forget they'll jam up with small stones, grit, mud and ice which cannot be compressed and pushed through a regular chain!

[synaesthesia]

makes sense - having a chain with links move against each other all the time is bound to have some friction

 

seems to need a lot of development before it can take on the current concepts

 

there do seem to be moves towards a drive belt rather than a chain - I think the GTech ebike has one but it doesn;t seem to have caught on yet

 

Nothing G-tech makes will ever catch on - their equipment has never been anything more than "find an existing piece of hardware and attach a drill battery to it, then charge prices that'll make Apple users cry".

[mikeprice]

I agree that the ebikes look like marketing over usefulness

 

however the idea of using a belt and hub gears does seem like a good idea - but comments about them jamming up easily is a good point - not much use to me as I ride on paths a lot - and the main road near here is always covered with gravel and mud (just how long can it take to build a golf course!!!)

 

so hub gears and belt drive may not be the answer - pity

[jmak]

 

 

But a derailleur, when properly adjusted and with good cables, is simple and very reliable. .

 

And this folks, is good advice. The most expensive cables Shimano offer cost about twenty quid for a set. I sometimes nearly forget how to adjust gears because they stay in tune for so long. (Not true obviously, because I have to fix bikes for people who won't spend twenty quid on cables, but my bike hardly ever needs adjusting.)

 

They also make even cheap gear mechs work better.

[mikeprice]

And this folks, is good advice. The most expensive cables Shimano offer cost about twenty quid for a set. I sometimes nearly forget how to adjust gears because they stay in tune for so long. (Not true obviously, because I have to fix bikes for people who won't spend twenty quid on cables, but my bike hardly ever needs adjusting.)

 

They also make even cheap gear mechs work better.

 

TBF I have never replaced a gear cable

 

my first real bike - 1970s peugeot road bike - 10 speed, drops, purple (it was the 1970s - go figure) it was awesome - must have done a million miles on the damn thing before some toerag knicked it from the garage - never replaced anything except the bungy cord on the carrier

 

folding mountain bike (Rudge Bi-Frame - weird thing - got left at my exs when we split up) didn;t do that much mileage - but did a bit - never replaced anything but did stop the indexing working so I could just change by feel

 

 

First ebike - had it for 10 years - did loads of miles - never replaced anything until about a year before I sold it - got the LBS to service it - they said the balls in the ball bearing thingy were about square! - other than that it was fine

 

lets see how current ebike goes - I expect it go wear out the chain eventually if rumours are valid - but we shall see

 

as far as gears go - I generally give the gears, changing mech and chain a good scrub with a toothbrush (don;t tell the wife - she just thinks it tastes funny) and some meths once a year and then chuck some 3-in-one all over it

 

has worked so far

 

and fiddling with your bike is a good way to spend a sunny afternoon and clearly involves a test ride afterwards - possibly via a pub

 

all of which is a damn good reason to stick with derailleur gears as they are in the open and easy to fiddle with

you gotta get your priorities right

[Mistert89]

1x11 derailleur Shimano Steps on my Raleigh Mustang Elite works for me. Best I’ve had, and good range. Ideal when you’re the wrong side of 50 (& 60!)

[mikeprice]

Ideal when you’re the wrong side of 50 (& 60!)

 

you and me both mate - well actually only the 60 bit after March

 

which is why I got the ebike

 

now I just have to work out a way of oiling the bike chain without getting oil over the new patio(or actually 'more oil' - amazing how it soaks into rough cut stone) but we'll pass over that