[sims] How late is SIMS 8?

[paulkerton]

Next Generation SIMS | ESS SIMS (ess-sims.co.uk)

 

This is quite a disgraceful post really, preying on the fears of less technical SLT staff and leveraging some of their partner relationships they have to justify staying with SIMS.

I think this is them almost giving up on web based solutions and moving to a RDC system. This is why all the big MATs are switching away.

 

This speaks to a need to evolve SIMS rather than replace it wholesale

 

:frusty:

Edited October 15, 2021 by paulkerton

[MartinT]

I'm not sure I agree. Many schools, such as us, are heavily entrenched in SIMS, like it or not. Migration away to a different MIS would involve a considerable amount of pain and upheaval. We have 12 sync-connected systems pulling data from SIMS, alone.

 

If ESS are able to implement gradual, painless, migration, then it is an option we have to take seriously.

[Ditto]

This is quite a disgraceful post really, preying on the fears of less technical SLT staff and leveraging some of their partner relationships they have to justify staying with SIMS.

I think this is them almost giving up on web based solutions and moving to a RDC system. This is why all the big MATs are switching away.

 

 

 

[/font][/color]:frusty:

Your right, it is a lowbrow approach. If there was every a case of replicating IBM's sales FUD approach, this it it!

[supportman]

I'm not sure I agree. Many schools, such as us, are heavily entrenched in SIMS, like it or not. Migration away to a different MIS would involve a considerable amount of pain and upheaval. We have 12 sync-connected systems pulling data from SIMS, alone.

 

If ESS are able to implement gradual, painless, migration, then it is an option we have to take seriously.

When we migrated away from Sims last year we got rid of:

 

Schoolcomms, Tucassi SCO, TASC insight, 4Matrix, Ruler, Groupcall, Wonde, Cunninghams, Nova-T, Bluesky and probably a few more that I forgot.

 

If anything having one system to do it all has simplified our workflows. We had no issue moving, I think the biggest thing was reissuing parent portal logins, but that only took a few days.

Edited October 15, 2021 by supportman

[paulkerton]

I'm not sure I agree. Many schools, such as us, are heavily entrenched in SIMS, like it or not. Migration away to a different MIS would involve a considerable amount of pain and upheaval.

 

Hows Windows XP running there?

If "we're tied in" is a reason not to explore other solutions - in the IT space of all things - then why aren't you still running Archimedes or even BBC Micros?

Change Management is a key part of the job.

Edited October 15, 2021 by paulkerton

[psydii]

When we migrated away from Sims last year we got rid of:

 

Schoolcomms, Tucassi SCO, TASC insight, 4Matrix, Ruler, Groupcall, Wonde, Cunninghams, Nova-T, Bluesky and probably a few more that I forgot.

 

If anything having one system to do it all has simplified our workflows. We had no issue moving, I think the biggest thing was reissuing parent portal logins, but that only took a few days.

 

There is no way that any one system does each of those things as well as the individual parts did. - Who owned the project and persuaded the various stakeholders to make the compromises necessary for the success of the wider project?

 

Don't get me wrong - the end result overall, I'm sure, is better than the sum of the previous parts - but the Timetabler and HR/Line Managers (for example) might feel that their toolset has taken a step back.

 

Genuinely interested to hear how the people side of this was handled.

[paulkerton]

There is no way that any one system does each of those things as well as the individual parts did.

Firmly disagree. Firmly. There is no way so many inter-operating systems will work as smoothly as replacing them with as few parts as possible and absolutely no way those individual parts were being utilised to their fullest. Of course, you'll still have to plug in systems now and then but if you don't need to add extras because it already is part of a service, then why should you do so? Paying to duplicate things you can already do is a huge, painful waste of resources.

 

One case in point. If I have Microsoft 365 or Google Workspace, it is worth looking at Teams Telephony or Voice to replace the VOIP system due to the ease of management and operability compared to buying in a completely separate system and trying to bolt it into what I have. Do they have as many features as a fully featured 3CX system? Probably not, but the interoperability will be far better.

Edited October 15, 2021 by paulkerton

[supportman]

There is no way that any one system does each of those things as well as the individual parts did. - Who owned the project and persuaded the various stakeholders to make the compromises necessary for the success of the wider project?

 

Don't get me wrong - the end result overall, I'm sure, is better than the sum of the previous parts - but the Timetabler and HR/Line Managers (for example) might feel that their toolset has taken a step back.

 

Genuinely interested to hear how the people side of this was handled.

 

Yeh its a bit of both really...

 

Things like cashless catering being all included in the parent portal is a huge improvement without having to sync between 3 different systems. Timetabling is an interesting one as Nova-T is very out of date but still quite functional. We ended up moving to another 3rd party product in the end but it did save is £2,000 in doing so HR and perfomance management is another good example, our MIS now does all that and of course it works nicely with single sign-on, personel records ect. But you are right, it may lack certain functionality from Bluesky. But then again its another 3k saved...

 

In terms of people and the personalities involved we found it easy during lockdown, as everyone wanted remote access and we knew about the risks of remote desktop so people understood the need for a modern system. I think its best to get a single member of SLT on board and just go from there. I kept sending SLT BBC news stories about schools loosing their Sims data in Ransomware attacks, that appeared to focus minds Then just go hard at everyone else using the buzzwords about safegaurding, cyber security, ofsted which are important in schools and understood by the less technical people.

 

We ran both Sims and Bromcom for 6 months until everyone was happy to change over. That helped a lot in terms of takeup.

 

Both our school office personel and teachers had no issues with a move to a modern system. I can't remember any negative feedback in terms of features or missing things. There are a lot of new things like the census and A2C exam integration that make peoples lives so much easier as well.

 

As with anything communication and having a overall strategy are important, but at the end of the day, its up to us the Network Managers or IT to push these things forward and not just sit on our hands and say its too hard. Oh and don't get me wrong... I also was worried about it being too hard or dangerous with so many people involved, but I'm happy to say having gone through the migration that the vast majority of my fears came to nothing.

Edited October 15, 2021 by supportman

[kennysarmy]

There is no way that any one system does each of those things as well as the individual parts did. - Who owned the project and persuaded the various stakeholders to make the compromises necessary for the success of the wider project?

 

Don't get me wrong - the end result overall, I'm sure, is better than the sum of the previous parts - but the Timetabler and HR/Line Managers (for example) might feel that their toolset has taken a step back.

 

Genuinely interested to hear how the people side of this was handled.

 

Firmly disagree. Firmly. There is no way so many inter-operating systems will work as smoothly as replacing them with as few parts as possible and absolutely no way those individual parts were being utilised to their fullest. Of course, you'll still have to plug in systems now and then but if you don't need to add extras because it already is part of a service, then why should you do so? Paying to duplicate things you can already do is a huge, painful waste of resources.

 

One case in point. If I have Microsoft 365 or Google Workspace, it is worth looking at Teams Telephony or Voice to replace the VOIP system due to the ease of management and operability compared to buying in a completely separate system and trying to bolt it into what I have. Do they have as many features as a fully featured 3CX system? Probably not, but the interoperability will be far better.

 

 

It's very rarely black and white and what works in one school may not work so well in another.

[paulkerton]

It's very rarely black and white and what works in one school may not work so well in another.

 

Agree. However, I would suggest that most tools have the actual features most schools need and would use and a lot of the time. Having worked in multiple schools, its a desire to use a tool that people look at first, or this idea that you "need" a tool where you've already got the facilities elsewhere.

 

For example, everyone rushing to pay for Zoom last year when they had Google Meet and Microsoft Teams already.

Edited October 15, 2021 by paulkerton

[TechMonkey]

But there is scare mongering in that post. Saying there are is disruption is only valid if a proper plan is not put in place. Not going to claim every migration will go smoothly but to label it as disruption is pretty disingenuous. I don't know of any migration that have restricted data migration or have causes data loss, if properly planned. The cases where I have heard of difficulty are normally moving from SIMS and to do with their support not wanting supply data structure information or people having issues navigating their tortuous structure. The choice argument is hilarious in a post trying to convince people to not choose. The cost argument is also just an indicator of bad planning or maybe a rogue installer. I don't know any systems that hide their costs as it is a sure fire way to annoy schools. In fact the biggest culprit of that in the past has been SIMS.

 

Not sure what schools they have spoken to but on here there has been nothing but positive experiences from moving. Yes it needs to be managed, and managed carefully, but anyone not realising that was going to have a bad time no matter what.

[MartinT]

Hows Windows XP running there?

If "we're tied in" is a reason not to explore other solutions - in the IT space of all things - then why aren't you still running Archimedes or even BBC Micros?

Change Management is a key part of the job.

 

That's a bit of a silly statement. I'm all for simplification but legacy is legacy and somehow all of these functions would have to be replicated elsewhere. We *are* tied in and it *will* be a hell of a job to detatch from, but it doesn't mean for one moment that I won't take the chance if I can. Don't underestimate the pain, though.

 

I simply don't believe comments about pain-free migration. Never in all my years have I known such a thing in a school with Teachers involved

[Primus]

That's a bit of a silly statement. I'm all for simplification but legacy is legacy and somehow all of these functions would have to be replicated elsewhere. We *are* tied in and it *will* be a hell of a job to detatch from, but it doesn't mean for one moment that I won't take the chance if I can. Don't underestimate the pain, though.

 

I simply don't believe comments about pain-free migration. Never in all my years have I known such a thing in a school with Teachers involved

 

I'm in the middle of migrating the MIS for all of the schools in our MAT. I wouldn't describe the process as painful.

[TechMonkey]

I simply don't believe comments about pain-free migration. Never in all my years have I known such a thing in a school with Teachers involved

 

I think you will be surprised about how accepting staff will be if they are being offered something that will actually help them and they don't have to actively fight. We moved from an old school SIMS-a-like and staff were happy that we were using something modern that they weren't having to fight to get what they needed done. Now, we weren't so far along the using IT systems and utilising data so it may have been easier but I will bet you still get a lot of goodwill by getting rid of a system staff do not like.

 

Not saying it is plain sailing all the time but Staff are a lot more accepting when something goes wrong when it is the exception, rather than the rule.

[MartinT]

I would say our migration to Office 365 (including e-mail) went very well considering, but it still couldn't be characterised as pain-free. There's a considerable amount of training, hand-holding and repeating of things involved.

[mavhc]

There's a few issues, one, actually getting the data migrated, oh it turns out half the stuff isn't migrated, or 75% if you're using a lot of your existing MIS.

 

That's before the staff are involved anyway.

 

Then beta testing with staff, find out what's broken, what's not understood, what's better, what's worse, use that to write documentation

 

Well considering it was meant to be rolled out for primary schools in 2018 according to their own site (https://www.capita-sims.co.uk/resources/blog/next-generation-of-sims) I would imagine we might get it by 2118

 

It's so late the blog post about it has died.

[FN-GM]

We have 12 sync-connected systems

 

This in itself should be an alarm bell..

[nicholab]

I think it is easier if you have an Data manager that can be an expert in your MIS and education the rest of the team and staff. They can understand the data and own the migration. We do seem to have have an issue of certain generation of staff being SIMS addicts. Also all the schools in NI are stuck with the rubbish c2k centralised contract that includes SIMS.

[TechMonkey]

There's a considerable amount of training, hand-holding and repeating of things involved.

 

I wouldn't classify these as pain though. Those are necessary steps and should be built in to any migration of any system. If they are considered pain then every day of my work life is pain and my work place should be dealt with under the Geneva convention as an instrument of torture!

[mthomas08]

It's very rarely black and white and what works in one school may not work so well in another.

 

Yes - yes - yes.

 

I'm glad this whole thread is here, because it's very useful for a school considering a tender process for the MIS.

 

Although the blog post is a bit scaremongering, they are valid points to consider and knowing some teachers leading the project may not even think about that list.........

 

I am absolutely not defending them.. I find SIMs an absolute nightmare at times. The need for patches to fix problems.. a patch to fix a workstation fix which was released to fix the original update... and released during term.

Performance patches and endless amount of tasks to improvement the speed of SIMs, to then realise that most of it made no difference to certain aspects of SIMs like attendance. To spend years and years trying to fix the random memory crash error and now all of a sudden.... gone.

 

Their support has improved over the years and I prefer Solus 3 compared to the old days.

 

BUT there are still problems with SIMs.. still generally slow at times.. and considering the overall costs involved.. it really shouldn't be like this in 2021. I can accept not having home access but the sheer slowness of the system to do certain tasks.. isn't good enough.

[supportman]

Their support has improved over the years and I prefer Solus 3 compared to the old days.

 

Now that is quite a statement! I still have nightmares about solus haha!! I wonder if they will keep it going forward...?

 

Moving to full cloud has meant I have not done an "upgrade" or "client rollout" in 18 months. For all of you stuck on Sims and not motivated to move, then just think about the wonderful world where a cloud system just works and constantly updates with new features.

 

I know i'm preaching to the converted talking to a load of systems admins, but it is refreshing now we have moved to not have to deal with that.

[mthomas08]

Now that is quite a statement! I still have nightmares about solus haha!! I wonder if they will keep it going forward...?

 

Moving to full cloud has meant I have not done an "upgrade" or "client rollout" in 18 months. For all of you stuck on Sims and not motivated to move, then just think about the wonderful world where a cloud system just works and constantly updates with new features.

 

I know i'm preaching to the converted talking to a load of systems admins, but it is refreshing now we have moved to not have to deal with that.

 

It has been a nightmare to get here.. moving from an older version to 3 was ... ugh... I don't want to talk about it. Several calls > redoing clients.. > more calls.

 

The latest patch broke SIMs but managed to fix it.. totally my fault for giving Solus praise.

 

SO.... we are are now looking to tender... and SIMs latest blog didn't give me much encouragement on SIMs 8 coming in a good condition let alone moving forward.

[supportman]

It has been a nightmare to get here.. moving from an older version to 3 was ... ugh... I don't want to talk about it. Several calls > redoing clients.. > more calls.

 

The latest patch broke SIMs but managed to fix it.. totally my fault for giving Solus praise.

 

SO.... we are are now looking to tender... and SIMs latest blog didn't give me much encouragement on SIMs 8 coming in a good condition let alone moving forward.

 

To me the Blog was hugely dissapointing.

 

They are basically admitting they are continuing with all the technical debt of Sims just bolting on a cloud layor on top. Madness from a software engineers point of view, but it sounds like these decisions are not being made by them. Just like the old Capita who tried to save money by cutting back the developers and outsourcing them.

 

If I was them, I would get a group of young modern framework developers in a room with a couple of experienced guys and build out single modules of functionality starting with a fresh database structure and responsive web design. Agile development, release early, release often etc etc. Get another room of developers there to handle the migration code and processes. Host it on Azure or AWS and your good to go in 6 months.

Edited October 20, 2021 by supportman

[mavhc]

But as you're effectively moving to a new system at that point, why would you stick with SIMS?

[paulkerton]

But as you're effectively moving to a new system at that point, why would you stick with SIMS?

 

The way the blog read, I think it's going to be more of a hybrid system, where basically you'll get hosted interfaces to your existing SIMS database on site.

Which is exactly what they used to have on offer with SIMS Webparts 13 years ago, as far as I can see.