Here’s What The Stark Gender Disparity Among Top Orchestra Musicians Looks Like

[6Foot2]

@witch: This might not be news to you but I thought that you might not have seen it so here it is:

 

Link: Here’s what the stark gender disparity among top orchestra musicians looks like [Quartz at Work]

 

 

...Of the 2,438 full-time musicians we looked at, 1,677 (69%) were men. But in many instruments, men were even more disproportionately represented. Bassoon (86% male), double bass (95%), and timpani (96%) players are predominately men. Just one of the 103 trumpet players in the 22 orchestras is a woman, and there are no women among the 99 trombonists and 26 tuba players. Only the harp, which is 94% female, is as skewed in the other direction...

 

How disappointing. It seems to express the opinion: "The harp, flute, and violin are instruments suitable for female performers. Others, while they can be played by women, to get the best from them it should be a man" This overrepresentation of male performers with these instruments seems, to me, to be not accidental.

 

The "Our society does not want women to be loud" seems an oversimplification to me.

[stevejp]

@witch: This might not be news to you but I thought that you might not have seen it so here it is:

 

Link: Here’s what the stark gender disparity among top orchestra musicians looks like [Quartz at Work]

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]50659[/ATTACH]

 

 

 

How disappointing. It seems to express the opinion: "The harp, flute, and violin are instruments suitable for female performers. Others, while they can be played by women, to get the best from them it should be a man" This overrepresentation of male performers with these instruments seems, to me, to be not accidental.

 

The "Our society does not want women to be loud" seems an oversimplification to me.

 

Very interesting - thanks, Dave. TBH, however, I am not convinced of its accuracy, particularly when deps are taken into account. This is, I will admit a completely unscientific response, but I am quite sure that over the summer, for example, I remember seeing more than one of the orchestras at the proms with a female trombonist. We have a female percussionist, and I have no hesitation in handing the timp sticks over to her whenever needed. I have played in many orchestras over the years, and have seen many fine female brass and percussion players.

 

Please don't get me wrong - I am not for one minute arguing with the basic premise that a) there aren't enough women in these positions or b) that there shouldn't be more, but I am not sure of the validity of the actual information.

 

It seems ridiculous that there used to be orchestras/brass bands (within my lifetime) who wouldn't admit women players - I believe that the Berlin Phil was one and Black Dyke Mills brass band was another (to say nothing of the international staff band of the Salvation Army...) - and those days are thankfully past, but even today I'm not convinced that the cult of the autocratic maestro who has the ultimate say in who plays in 'his' orchestra has completely died out. Hopefully people like Jane Glover and Marin Alsop and other female conductors coming through will break down these barriers even further.

[elsiegee40]

I heard something about this on the radio. Apparently in the US blind auditions, where the musician plays from behind a screen, are now the norm and have radically changed the racial and gender mix of orchestras. They were saying this isn't the norm in the UK, but it should be.

[stevejp]

I heard something about this on the radio. Apparently in the US blind auditions, where the musician plays from behind a screen, are now the norm and have radically changed the racial and gender mix of orchestras. They were saying this isn't the norm in the UK, but it should be.

 

Happy to be corrected, but I believe that it was Leonard Bernstein who first tried this idea?

[witch]

I have friends who have performed in blind auditions in this country and they much prefer it.

I'm not convinced of the accuracy of those figures either - unless the BSO is bucking the trend massively, although it is true, they dont have any female trumpets or trombones. 25% of the Horns are female though!

Yes, in my lifetime the LSO voted not to admit women!

Interestingly, in all the amateur orchestras around me, there are many more female horn players than male, and quite a few female brass players too. (we are NOT brass)

[Andycat]

The Halle has 2 female trombonists currently.

The Philadelphia Orchestra has a female Tubist.

 

Pretty sure these are top Orchestras....

[Norphy]

Apologies if this is a stupid and/or ignorant question. I'm not even close to being a musician so I'm just shooting in the dark here.

 

Although I can't see this being a reason for most of those instruments up there, could it be with some of them that the physical aspects of an instrument make it easier for one sex to play them than the other? For example, a double bass is physically huge so women, who are on average physically smaller than men, might find that harder to play while a harp might be more suited to someone who is more dexterous so might suit women more than men? My FIL has fingers like jumbo hot dogs so I can't see him being able to play a harp very easily!

 

Of course, that might be complete crap so if it is, please say so!

[JordanT91]

Apologies if this is a stupid and/or ignorant question. I'm not even close to being a musician so I'm just shooting in the dark here.

 

Although I can't see this being a reason for most of those instruments up there, could it be with some of them that the physical aspects of an instrument make it easier for one sex to play them than the other? For example, a double bass is physically huge so women, who are on average physically smaller than men, might find that harder to play while a harp might be more suited to someone who is more dexterous so might suit women more than men? My FIL has fingers like jumbo hot dogs so I can't see him being able to play a harp very easily!

 

Of course, that might be complete crap so if it is, please say so!

It's not complete crap, and it is something that should be considered in lots of things, not just musical instrument playing. Sometimes people are scared to discuss it for fear of being branded sexist.

 

Again, like you, I know nothing about the science, but as women are on average smaller than men, does that mean they have smaller lungs? Could that affect their proficiency at playing wind instruments? I honestly don't know the answer.

 

It's like the age old topic of women in the army. Yes, women can do the job (see Israel), but there's no denying there are physical differences between men and women, which is why there has to be different physical standards. Put simply, men make better fighters, mainly because they are faster and stronger. Beyond that, do women have any disadvantages? I'm not aware of any studies suggesting either gender is more intelligent. Same for dexterity.

[stevejp]

Apologies if this is a stupid and/or ignorant question. I'm not even close to being a musician so I'm just shooting in the dark here.

 

Although I can't see this being a reason for most of those instruments up there, could it be with some of them that the physical aspects of an instrument make it easier for one sex to play them than the other? For example, a double bass is physically huge so women, who are on average physically smaller than men, might find that harder to play while a harp might be more suited to someone who is more dexterous so might suit women more than men? My FIL has fingers like jumbo hot dogs so I can't see him being able to play a harp very easily!

 

Of course, that might be complete crap so if it is, please say so!

 

To answer your point about the harp v double bass, actually the double bass is probably easier, in some ways. They are, despite their size, much lighter in weight than a full concert harp, and therefore easier to manoeuvre.

I think that at least part of the answer lies in history. Instruments such as the tuba, trombone, timpani etc were definitely ('tho erroneously) seen as instruments more suited to boys than to girls, and that became a vicious circle, in educational terms. This, in turn, led to less girls/women coming through the system and becoming good enough to play in the top orchestras.

Similarly, during the seventies and eighties and before, the brass band world was a horribly chauvinistic one. I remember going to the British Open Brass Band Contest at Belle Vue (and I have completely given my advanced age away to any one here who knows brass bands!) and cannot remember a single woman competitor in any of the bands. Not only that, women who were good enough were sometimes treated pretty badly, I think. Fortunately, things have changed, but I suppose it takes time (and I am not using that as an excuse!) for things to change at the very top of any field.

Edited October 23, 2018 by stevejp

[stevejp]

It's not complete crap, and it is something that should be considered in lots of things, not just musical instrument playing. Sometimes people are scared to discuss it for fear of being branded sexist.

 

Again, like you, I know nothing about the science, but as women are on average smaller than men, does that mean they have smaller lungs? Could that affect their proficiency at playing wind instruments? I honestly don't know the answer.

 

In answer to that point, may I respectfully direct anyone interested to good 'ole YouTube, and do a search for Alison Balsom. You may be pleasantly surprised...

Edited October 23, 2018 by stevejp

[Arthur]

For example, a double bass is physically huge so women, who are on average physically smaller than men, might find that harder to play

Electric string instruments seem to be more popular with female musicians (probably for this reason?). See Tina Guo, Vanessa-Mae, Bond, Escala etc.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_double_bass

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_upright_bass

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_cello

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_violin

 

[witch]

It's not complete crap, and it is something that should be considered in lots of things, not just musical instrument playing. Sometimes people are scared to discuss it for fear of being branded sexist.

 

Again, like you, I know nothing about the science, but as women are on average smaller than men, does that mean they have smaller lungs? Could that affect their proficiency at playing wind instruments? I honestly don't know the answer.

 

.

@JordanT91

No it doesnt. Wind instruments don't, as a whole, need large lungs to play them, so even if women's lungs are smaller this makes no difference. If you google it you will see that it takes more air to play a flute or a bassoon than a tuba!

 

Ditto the dexterity mentioned elsewhere, - flutes, clarinets and other woodwind instruments require enormous amounts of dexterity and are often played by men

 

Double basses are definitely big, yes, but women certainly manage to play them - there are six Double Basses in the BSO and three of them are women. They just lean the instrument a bit more so that they can get to the top and bottom

 

It definitley is NOT a question of ability - but it may well be that girls don't think about playing some instruments

Edited October 23, 2018 by witch

[Andycat]

In answer to that point, may I respectfully direct anyone interested to good 'ole YouTube, and do a search for Alison Balsom. You may be pleasantly surprised...

 

TL;DR but:

Home - Tine Thing Helseth

www.bonesapart.com

HOME

home

 

for starters...

 

And as for Brass Bands, I've experience of this. I played for Besses o'th Barn just after they admitted their first female player in the early 90's, and I also played in Faireys while they were still all male (2004!!). These days it's a better mix, although I currently play at Foden's and there are only 4 women in the band out of 28 players, but 3 of these are on Principal seats........

[jmak]

I'm more than a bit wary of contributing here as it's difficult to avoid reasoning that's stereotyping or sexist, but here goes....

 

I suspect that high up the list is the classic lack of role models; there is historic bias and it's difficult to overcome.

 

The controversial one: I hypothesise that it might be down to laziness - of boys/men. For entry to conservatoires/music schools the standard required for violin and piano is higher than other instruments, so you have to work harder to get in. Several of the instruments towards the bottom of the list are now on an "endangered" list; some colleges are offering incentives for double bass, bassoon and even French horn.

 

They're also instruments that you can't start at the earliest age - just because of the size (applies equally to both genders). I don't know if that makes a difference.

[NikChillin]

That is because men are full of hot air and like blowing their own trumpet?!

[Garacesh]

Apologies if this is a stupid and/or ignorant question. I'm not even close to being a musician so I'm just shooting in the dark here.

 

Although I can't see this being a reason for most of those instruments up there, could it be with some of them that the physical aspects of an instrument make it easier for one sex to play them than the other?

 

It's not complete crap, and it is something that should be considered in lots of things

 

Humans are a sexually dimorphic species and (contrary to what some vocal minorities on the ol' internet would have you believe) you're not sexist for questioning if this is a factor that may contribute in part to an observed trend. I very much doubt that sexual dimorphism will ever wholly account for a disparity, but it's not unfair to question it, provided you're open to the answer potentially being 'no, it doesn't play a part'

 

I do wonder how many people ever study orchestral music instruments anyway. To wholly go into the stereotyping for the sake of the example, I can't imagine we have a surplus of people sat at home with a Harp, Flute, Piano, Oboe, Cello, Bassoon, French Horn, Double Bass, Timpani, Trumpet, Trombone or Tuba. These strike me very much as academical instruments, i.e. ones you're taught as part of an academical curriculum. Which raises the next question: What kind of school has Harps, Flutes, Oboes, Cellos, Bassoons, etcetera lay around? (Making a point of purposely disregarding Piano as I'd imagine most schools have those, or at least keyboards which are similar enough to the untrained ear)

 

Well.. Expensive schools do. 'Posh' schools. Again, sticking with stereotypes here, fancy private schools that the political elite and wealthy send their kids to are the ones with those instruments. You're not going to be getting Harp lessons at your local comprehensive, are you? Violin, perhaps. Piano, probably. Percussion maybe. But the rest I feel are unlikely, drawing from my own experiences with public schools. So the next question then is, what are the gender ratios at fancy private institutions, of which how many study an instrument, of which what instruments do they study?

 

Now to drop the stereotype and come back to reality, not every orchestral musician is going to have gone to a well-off private school, and especially in today's world of YouTube and Patreon I can very much see a person from a working-class family still able to study those kinds of instruments to a reasonably high enough degree to consider further education with it if they can manage to get hold of one at a young enough age and put in enough practice.

 

Of course I could be talking utter tripe, but I'd be interested to see a breakdown of backgrounds for these 2,438 musicians.

Edited October 24, 2018 by Garacesh

[PotNoodleTech]

So has anyone done a graph about the gender disparity between nurses, or primary school teachers? There are a fair few industries where men don't get a look in too!

[Reboot_IT]

I know nothing about music but trying to make men and women the same in every area is getting somewhat annoying. Might it be that women just prefer to do one type of instrument and men prefer the other?

 

My girlfriend prefers me to sort the garden out whilst she does internal household chores which I suspect happens in most cases. As somebody said, men and women are genetically different both physically and emotionally.

 

That doesn't mean some females won't garden and enjoy it.

[stevejp]

TL;DR but:

Home - Tine Thing Helseth

www.bonesapart.com

HOME

home

 

for starters...

 

And as for Brass Bands, I've experience of this. I played for Besses o'th Barn just after they admitted their first female player in the early 90's, and I also played in Faireys while they were still all male (2004!!). These days it's a better mix, although I currently play at Foden's and there are only 4 women in the band out of 28 players, but 3 of these are on Principal seats........

 

Thanks, Andycat. I knew there was another brass bander on here from a previous post a few days ago,but didn't have time to search last night! I've been out of the loop for many years, now - Have the horribly chauvinistic attitudes largely disappeared, now?

[witch]

The report was about orchestras, not brass bands where I suspect the gender disparity would be far worse

@Garacesh - you are presuming that most children learn their instrument at school which is no longer the case. I learned at school but most schools have contracted their music departments and no local schools offer a full range of orchestral instruments AFAIK But, a decent comprehensive, and there are two very near me, will offer private teachers for most instruments. My daughter went from learning at school initially to a higher level private teacher at 14. The price of lessons is more likely to be an issue and so possibly resulting in more middle class players, but I know quite a few professional orchestral players and very few are from a private school background. They are far more likely to be from families that put a high value on learning a musical instrument, and who seek out local music initiatives, county orchestras, bands that offer free tuition etc.

 

Why do you think they are academical anyway? Not sure that I see the correlation at all.

 

I come from a family which was very keen on classical music, i was brought up with it, i loved it and chose to play the instrument I loved the sound of. You can start some instruments at a young age, my daughter started the flute at 8 years old, but it is advisable not to start a brass instrument until the teeth and jaw are fully formed as the pressure of the mouthpiece can deform a growing mouth. Not really about the weight although a French horn is pretty heavy when you are 11 years old and only 5ft tall, as I was!

Edited October 24, 2018 by witch

[Andycat]

The report was about orchestras, not brass bands where I suspect the gender disparity would be far worse

 

Pretty sure that across the sections there are equal numbers these days, if not actually more women.

[witch]

Pretty sure that across the sections there are equal numbers these days, if not actually more women.

 

That's good to hear