LeMarchand Posted July 3, 2018 Author Posted July 3, 2018 Sorry I have lost your argument in the first paragraph. You seem to be agreeing with me, that being on unlimited you are paying over the odds, but being on metered you are paying for what you use.1 But metered customers have a price per unit, they have a measurement of the units they are using so they will only pay for what they use. Yes, I concede that the company may put the unit price up the next year to try and claw that back but you can count on there being a fuss kicked up about it. It would be like a company putting their prices up after receiving a fine for something.2 1 You're paying above average because you think you might need that leeway. Until recently I was paying for unlimited everything on my mobile, but with the last price rise changed my tariff. I never got close to unlimited, but it was worth it to me "just in case". 2 Guess you've not been in the supermarket recently...
mikeprice Posted July 3, 2018 Posted July 3, 2018 In many areas the water has to be treated due to sheep poo etc etc in the lakes - or just bugs in general in which case any leaks downstream from the treatment plant means that the company as wasted money treating watetr hat then just goes out to a river so leaks DO have a cost - but possibly not enough
elsiegee40 Posted July 3, 2018 Posted July 3, 2018 In many areas the water has to be treated due to sheep poo etc etc in the lakes - or just bugs in general in which case any leaks downstream from the treatment plant means that the company as wasted money treating watetr hat then just goes out to a river so leaks DO have a cost - but possibly not enoughRound here the cost of leaks is sink holes! The chalk of the white cliffs of Dover extends far into Kent and sometimes the first we know of a mains leak is when the road disappears. Unfortunately the cost of fixing those is with the County Council not the water board
AMLinington Posted July 4, 2018 Posted July 4, 2018 From the random sample of this thread it has shown that it is cheaper to be on metered. So if we take your premise that the company will always make money then the fixed rate people are paying over the odds to make up for being 'unlimited'. So they are probably paying more than the metered customers to cover this unlimited feature. Whereas the metered customers now know exactly how much they are using, the cost per unit, the standing charge and so have a transparent bill. I'm not sure I understand your economics. The price per unit may not come down but if you use less you pay less, whereas the fixed rate user cannot change their outgoing. If a company only needs to process 500k units then their outgoings will be less so it will cost the company less, yes job losses will probably be necessary but that is how companies work. I think the issue stems from your POV that all companies are trying to shaft all customers all the time. Now I am not so naive to believe that the companies are looking out for our best interests but I think there has to be some benefit of the doubt. Leaks make headlines these days and I would bet it is actually more beneficial to fix leaks than it is to leave them be and raise costs, especially as the companies are being fined in the millions for not fixing leaks. Sorry I have lost your argument in the first paragraph. You seem to be agreeing with me, that being on unlimited you are paying over the odds, but being on metered you are paying for what you use. But metered customers have a price per unit, they have a measurement of the units they are using so they will only pay for what they use. Yes, I concede that the company may put the unit price up the next year to try and claw that back but you can count on there being a fuss kicked up about it. It would be like a company putting their prices up after receiving a fine for something. I think the key benefit to smart meters and water meters IS the transparency. Even if our bills DO go up, we are paying for what we physically use. I don't mind taking responsibility for my own usage. I DO think companies gouge you on pricing WHATEVER tariff you're on - and this is only going to get worse - especially now the government is considering removing the limit on fuel and alcohol duty. The cost of fuel is going to be astronomical and I'm not naive enough to think this won't have a knock-on effect on the whole economy - gas and electricity and water will be affected - water by proxy - running costs will increase so of course this will be passed onto the customer to avoid upsetting the shareholders. Non-metered customers pay a value that is essentially an 'average' for houses of their type and size. So take me and my neighbours as an example - 10 people one side with about 4 dogs and at least one small child, 4 people the other, with 2 kids, a dog and a pond, versus LeHusband and I in the middle with our water butts and our bunnies and our cat. I don't need to bathe my animals at all. Dogs on the other hand probably need bathing as much as a small child because they STINK. So the combined water usage for our three consecutive houses is probably astronomical, but on a non-metered tariff LeHusband and I would be paying effectively 1/3 (this is an illustrative example and not based in fact). But there is no way we would actually use 1/3 of the total water usage for our three houses. Obviously both the other houses are probably paying way less than they actually should be, because paying an 'average' works out well for them because they are high-usage homes, but for low-usage homes, I think a meter is a much fairer way forward. Even if my bill goes up, at least I know I'm paying for my own usage and not overpaying to support people like my neighbours who waste water. 3
bossman Posted July 4, 2018 Posted July 4, 2018 From the random sample of this thread it has shown that it is cheaper to be on metered. I agree to a certain extent that metered for a small household will be inherently cheaper as they would be able to control their usage far better but for a larger family it would be more beneficial for them not to have a metered water supply for the larger amount of water they would use and not be in total control of. So if we take your premise that the company will always make money then the fixed rate people are paying over the odds to make up for being 'unlimited'. So they are probably paying more than the metered customers to cover this unlimited feature. Whereas the metered customers now know exactly how much they are using, the cost per unit, the standing charge and so have a transparent bill. Yes I agree with you again that those people on an un-metered water supply will obviously be paying more per unit on average but if they are using 5 times more water than a metered household on a metered supply then the average cost actually comes down on the amount of usage per unit if you get my drift. I'm not sure I understand your economics. The price per unit may not come down but if you use less you pay less, whereas the fixed rate user cannot change their outgoing. If a company only needs to process 500k units then their outgoings will be less so it will cost the company less, yes job losses will probably be necessary but that is how companies work. Agreed your economics works great if your a small household and are very frugal with your water usage but there are those larger households that use a larger amount of water and it would not be economical for them to be metered as they wouldn't be able to control the amount of water that they would use on average therefore they are better off financially. I think the issue stems from your POV that all companies are trying to shaft all customers all the time. Now I am not so naive to believe that the companies are looking out for our best interests but I think there has to be some benefit of the doubt. Leaks make headlines these days and I would bet it is actually more beneficial to fix leaks than it is to leave them be and raise costs, especially as the companies are being fined in the millions for not fixing leaks. As for my POV that companies are there to shaft the public I too am not naive in giving them the benefit of the doubt as it is always in the companies best interests to make a profit and this will always come down to the detriment of its customers and workforce..... With most of the utility companies its never going to become their forte to drop prices as in any other service to the public because there are shareholders interests to uphold and they come first...also it has become increasingly clear that most of these companies are not in competition with each other but regularly fix prices for their own benefit.... I would dare any company to drop their prices before any other and by a large amount to see if the others followed suit and see how many would because they already know they have a good share of the public in that area where they provide water to and therefore would never entertain dropping their prices.... I've been paying household bills for 44years now and have a good handle on how we in this country get ripped off by greedy companies and now its only going to get worse as the worlds resources are depleted so those companies who provide a product which is necessary to sustain life will be forever in business and always make a profit. The fact that we have sold ours off to foreign investors is even worse as we are propping up their countries economics instead of our own.... We seriously need to take back control of our utilities before it is too late.... 1
LeMarchand Posted July 4, 2018 Author Posted July 4, 2018 I think the key benefit to smart meters and water meters IS the transparency. Even if our bills DO go up, we are paying for what we physically use. Until they activate the "Add an extra 10% to actual usage" module 1
witch Posted July 4, 2018 Posted July 4, 2018 Even large families can monitor and reduce their water usage I have three children and as stated earlier, we were on a water meter from a long time ago. We did our best to reduce the bill - never leaving the tap on whilst brushing our teeth, limiting toilet flushing, and never using the hose if at all possible etc . We knew we would be paying quite a lot - but then again, there are 5 of us so why wouldnt we? I do agree with the issue of utilities being sold off to foreign companies though - it should never have been allowed to happen - what has always worried me is that some of the owners live in very incendiary areas of the world, and if it all kicks off in their home country, goodness knows what will happen
bossman Posted July 4, 2018 Posted July 4, 2018 Even large families can monitor and reduce their water usage I have three children and as stated earlier, we were on a water meter from a long time ago. We did our best to reduce the bill - never leaving the tap on whilst brushing our teeth, limiting toilet flushing, and never using the hose if at all possible etc . We knew we would be paying quite a lot - but then again, there are 5 of us so why wouldnt we? My point was not about reducing your bill or being frugal with water usage it was the point that a large family would be better off without a meter therefore allowing them to use as much water as they wanted.... therefore bringing the actual cost per unit down for themselves long term....a kind of tipping point. I do agree with the issue of utilities being sold off to foreign companies though - it should never have been allowed to happen - what has always worried me is that some of the owners live in very incendiary areas of the world, and if it all kicks off in their home country, goodness knows what will happen OMG! you actually agree with something I've said blimey must have caught you on a good day!!
witch Posted July 4, 2018 Posted July 4, 2018 Yeah, never thought I'd agree with a professional Northerner who seems to believe that all of us down here live in London or the Home Counties and are rich (and probably right wing to boot!)
arwen Posted July 6, 2018 Posted July 6, 2018 It's reading threads like this that makes me glad my water and waste chargers are part of my council tax bill. Yes We probably pay slightly more than two people living a similar lifestyle in the rest of the UK do. But not by much, and so much less hassle! Unmetered Charges 2018 - 2019 - Scottish Water 1
LeMarchand Posted July 9, 2018 Author Posted July 9, 2018 https://discoverwater.co.uk/leaking-pipes Lower down that page reminds me: didn't the water companies use to be liable for all pipes outside your actual house pre- The Great Thatcher Sell Off?
6Foot2 Posted August 5, 2018 Posted August 5, 2018 A letter arrived yesterday. It informed us that us and our neighbours will soon have water meters fitted. We can opt not to pay on the meters for up to two years, but after that, we have no choice.
6Foot2 Posted August 5, 2018 Posted August 5, 2018 Seems fair, encourages people to not waste water Clarification: I was not being critical of the provision or water meters, just that it was happening and had spread to our area. Water companies need to 'up their game', a lot of waste that occurs is out of the hands of the customer: Link: Water - BBC News ...a fifth of water never reaches our taps due to leaks along the way...
SpuffMonkey Posted August 5, 2018 Posted August 5, 2018 They can only insist if certain conditions are met or you live in particular areas
Achandler Posted August 6, 2018 Posted August 6, 2018 United Utilities lose 25% of the water they put into the system in the North West. Could you imagine another Utility provider losing so much of what they provide! So customers have to subsidise them pumping water into the ground because the regulator says 25% loss is fine. How a leakage target can be try to get 75% of your water to customers I'll never know.
mikeprice Posted August 6, 2018 Posted August 6, 2018 Interesting chart I saw today showing that the water loss in the UK is about average for European countries
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