PhilNeal Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 Well if cloud MIS solutions have to get permission from parents to store data that is unworkable.
Jawloms Posted June 14, 2018 Author Posted June 14, 2018 Well if cloud MIS solutions have to get permission from parents to store data that is unworkable. No because having an MIS is essential to the school running. What isn't essential is uploading all the data to the cloud just to make the data collection sheet a bit easier to do. 1
matt40k Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 Apples and Pears. This isn't a cloud MIS, its a bolt-on. A school doesn't JUST move MIS system, what we're talking about is overnight sensitive data is being sent to a third party with consent and no way of individual refusing. If my son school moved to a certain cloud MIS and I didn't trust the company, I'd have to move him to a new school, which isn't ideal - but at least I have an option, be informed and time to do so. When applying for a school, I have the ability to find out where the data will be stored etc (ie which cloud MIS they are using). This is fundamentally different and it's worrying Capita don't appear to have designed this from the off - what's next we'll be finding out they have no way do deal with the "right to be forgotten"? Can imagine any Capita storing data forever and a day with no way to remove 1
bobsmith Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 No. SIMS .net is physically hosted on-prem in the school. Shipping the data to a third party, in potentially a different country is not the same. Currently, the only way that data enters Capita control is if a problem occurs, the school then agrees to send the data, the data is then purge once they have completed it - there is a lot of regulation and policy around this. This isn't a slight tweak, it's major change. It hasn't been essential function previously to do historically. Can't just wiggle the goal posts, this is will result in a GDPR fine. This is no different to having to get parental consent to use any other third party tool (SchoolComm \ ParentPay \ GroupCall \ Teacher2Parent \ etc) Sims.net can already be entirely cloud hosted. GDPR is concerned about shipping outside the EU, not the UK. Unless you're advocating rolling the clock back to 1950 and doing everything on paper then you're arguing a very strange position. GDPR was not intended to prevent the use of data systems in schools. Nor was it intended for people to opt out of absolutely everything in the digital world. 1
PhilNeal Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 The Parent data collection is an integral part of SIMS and an essential tool that helps parents and the school maintain accurate data. I find your argument odd. Data is not being shared with MS at all.
matt40k Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 (edited) This isn’t about a question about if I trust the cloud. This is a question of do I trust a third party who takes my families personal information without my consent or even knowledge and gives me no way of opt-out. Far as I am concerned, this is theft and a breach of GDPR. I just hope my data isn’t sat on Capita servers Data is not being shared with MS at all. To be clear, I'm not talking about Microsoft. I'm talk directly about Capita. Edited June 14, 2018 by matt40k 1
PhilNeal Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 I really don’t get this argument at all. A school must store parent data and keep it up to date. This is an anti-cloud argument
Jawloms Posted June 14, 2018 Author Posted June 14, 2018 I really don’t get this argument at all. A school must store parent data and keep it up to date. This is an anti-cloud argument Yes it must. But for the purposes of data collection must it upload it to the cloud when the data collection sheet is available? That is the arguement. 1
matt40k Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 This has nothing to do with the cloud!! You yourself have said before sending data off to a third party you need to get parental consent! This is no different. This is a bolt-on. Pure and simple. It doesn't stop the school from working if it doesn't use it. If it did, why hasn't SIMS had a way of doing this from the start? Heck even a way of bulk updating! It's a good idea and it's brilliant you are rolling it out for free. My issue, is purely you have a fundamental flaw, how do you opt-out. You still haven't said if you can or can't either. Personally we both know you will have that feature in the future if you don't today. 1
MkII Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 (edited) You yourself have said before sending data off to a third party you need to get parental consent! This is no different. The 3rd party is still Capita and the data is essential. What's different is the storage location. Edited June 14, 2018 by MkII
bobsmith Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 Really not getting this opt-out issue. If there was no such thing as a cloud-MIS then maybe you'd have a point, but we already have our data hosted offsite and we didn't ask permission because we don't have to. This app is simply allowing parents to access that data. I'm all for a bit of Capita bashing when it's deserved, but this just isn't an issue at all.
PhilNeal Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 I don’t think I have said that is necessary but it’s entirely possible that colleagues have! My interpretation of the law is that it would be necessary if the data was being shared with a TP not acting as a data processor for the school.
matt40k Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 Really not getting this opt-out issue. If there was no such thing as a cloud-MIS then maybe you'd have a point, but we already have our data hosted offsite and we didn't ask permission because we don't have to. If you data is hosted with Capita that's fine. It's no real change, no problem. Problem is most SIMS schools is on-prem and now, because of this app, it isn't the case. This is potential changing overnight and schools are being told by Capita they don't need to ask for parental consent to roll it out. If this genuinely not seeing this as problem and I'm wrong, then hey - how about Capita state, officially, that individual can't opt-out* and you don't need parental permission, publicly on there site, and I'll refer to it ICO etc and they can slap a seal of approval on it or slap them with a giant fine. * Still haven't got a clear answer on that - heck we may all be wasting our time talking about this. Come on - clear advice please! Phil - you might be right, but I've been asked about all the other third party apps - schoolcomms \ parentpay - and I can opt-out - why can't I on this? Seriously, I thought you were no1! 2
Jawloms Posted June 14, 2018 Author Posted June 14, 2018 I think the argument is not who is right or wrong, it's who is right and based on what evidence documented where, rather than "I'm right because I just know". @PhilNeal may well be right and I'm sure Capita are completely allowed to do what they are doing, but where is the documentation which says "You won't need permission, even though you currently only hold your data on your own site, because x, y and z"? Documentation, physical evidence, something I can show parents and the DPO as I don't think they'd accept a thread on EduGeek, however good you lot all may be. 2
MkII Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 how about Capita state, officially, that individual can't opt-out* and you don't need parental permission, publicly on there site Companies don't ever make such suicidal claims for obvious reasons. Are there examples of other 3rd parties processing essential data that need permission just to copy that data online?
matt40k Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 Pretty much every parent app, ever - part of there onboarding process - here is an example letter to send to parents with details about who we are, why and what we will do with the data, please consent (or if left us know if you reject before x date) AGAIN, nothing new, just seems to be cutting corners. 1
sigma Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 There are likely to be two types of parent that refuse. Those that don't want to do this via the app, and those that don't have smartphones. Consider also parents who do not live at the same address as the child - for whatever reason I seem to think are excluded from using the app. This link seems to provide more info about the app: SIMS Parent (From here: https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/sims-parent/id1106452691?mt=8) I should like more detail about (my bold): Is there any Third Party processing of the data? SIMS Parent sends reminder notifications using the Apple Push Notification service and the Google Cloud Messaging service. These notifications contain summary information about Student events. Is the Information Received from Third Party Providers used Outside of the Sign-In Process? The information is used to associate the third-party account with the SIMS ID identity that is used to authenticate the user to Parent App. The name from Parent App is displayed to assist in identifying correct sign-in by the end user. We do not store the email address provided by the third-party login provider. We do, however, store the email address provided from Parent app during the initial invite process for audit purposes. What Information do Sign-In Providers Receive from Capita? No information is passed from Capita to the sign-in provider. We do not send credential information to the third-party provider. The information those service providers have already is freely given and agreed to at the point the user creates an account with the third party and accepted the provider’s terms and conditions. The customer is required to examine what they have signed up to in order to determine this. Is it clear when a parent signs up exactly what they are signing up for - a credential manager and with Capita? The service is obviously of interest, but I need to be sure that my school is GDPR compliant and provides proper clarity in terms that parents will understand.
MkII Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 (edited) Consider also parents who do not live at the same address as the child - for whatever reason I seem to think are excluded from using the app. No all parents/guardians can be selected to view. There's an option in the backend to show data collection to parents not living at the same address. Edited June 14, 2018 by MkII
Edu-IT Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 No all parents/guardians can be selected to view. There's an option in the backend to show data collection to parents not living at the same address. But there is an issue, I believe, whereby if two parents cannot see each others contact details (lets say for legal reasons) then this app doesn’t support that rendering it totally useless in that situation.
jonnykewell1 Posted July 18, 2018 Posted July 18, 2018 Does anyone know of an easy was to list all the parents that have signed up and list those who haven't? I can bring up all the users if I go to manage users > Unregister users but I can't highlight all these and copy into an excel sheet because of how their website is built. I need to compare who has signed up and who hasn't so a letter can be sent to those parents to try and encourage them to use it.
bobsmith Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 We're all waiting on some basic functionality to make it useful! It's a complete PITA finding out anything from the site.
sigma Posted September 19, 2018 Posted September 19, 2018 This any good? FAQs Sorry to dig up an old post, but I have a query about syncronisation. There seems to be a great deal of simiarity/sharing of function between SIMS Parent and the SIMS Parent Lite, such as even if you are only using Parent Lite, there is only one SIMS Parent App. Is the syncronisation of the Parent Lite at the local SIMS server end the same as the syncronisation of SIMS Parent? What I'm trying to ask is if even if a school has only signed up to SIMS Parent Lite, do all the fields that would otherwise be synced for the full Parent get uploaded to Captia's Data Transfer Server (Capita's Cloud) but not link up further unless the full app has been purchased? (Because Capita only have the one process (maybe?))
Esteban_Child_of_the_Sun Posted September 19, 2018 Posted September 19, 2018 SIMS will only send the data that is enabled (via a patch) to Capita's web server. If you have applied the full Parent App patch, but not signed up for it then you will upload all data but only the material available in the Lite version will be available to see in the App. If you only applied the patch for the Lite version then the system will go through the process of looking at each area and SIMS will tell SSM that it isn't enabled for this site (which is why it still shows in the SSM logs). 1
sigma Posted September 29, 2018 Posted September 29, 2018 If parents authenticated to the app via Facebook then their credentials will be subject to the latest Facebook data breach. http://www.edugeek.net/forums/security/199937-facebook-security-flaw-exposed-50-million-accounts-hackers.html#post1706912
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