Smoothwall Support & Development - Entire office redundant

[AMLinington]

As a former employee of Smoothwall who was unceremoniously dumped, I can't help but take a tiny amount of sadistic glee in posting this in the main forum (it's posted in Direct Support).

 

So it seems that Smoothwall are now dumping their ENTIRE Fareham Development and Support office and 'moving technical operations to Leeds'.

 

I cannot stress strongly enough that ALL the information I have is that which is publicly available via these two links (I am also amused by the fact that their so-called Head of Marketing can't even spell 'Restructuring' correctly....):

 

Global security firm Smoothwall announces plans to cut 45 jobs in Fareham | Daily Echo

 

https://uk.smoothwall.com/restructing-future-growth/ Heh - 'Restructing' Heh. FAIL!

 

As is usual for redundancy, I expect they've all been sworn to secrecy - Non-disclosure tends to be pretty standard in cases like this - I've seen it a few times now. So I don't expect anyone is actually allowed to talk about it beyond the 'Marketing approved' statement. Poor spelling and all....

 

As someone who has been in the IT industry for over a decade and seen this kind of thing at multiple businesses, and as a pessimist, my money is on 'OUTSOURCING'. It seems all the support engineers you know and love are going (unless they fancy moving to Leeds ofc?) and a whole new bunch of people are coming in. A bunch of people who probably won't know you guys and who will probably be instructed not to do all the above-and-beyond stuff we used to do for those of you who didn't troubleshoot your own networks before calling into the support line... (Again, I stress this is my OPINION, NOT FACT - I am free to speculate regardless of how wrong I might be, and I'm probably wrong, but I honestly don't hold my breath for good news when an ENTIRE OFFICE is made redundant...)

 

But yeah, I bet the Chief Exec gets to keep HIS job.

 

So Merry Christmas to our loyal staff from Smoothwall - here's your redundancy...

 

It's an awful move to announce redundancy just before Christmas and my thoughts are with my friends and former colleagues at this difficult time. If anyone of you based down this way want developers or skilled support engineers, there are a bunch going to be available in the not too distant future....

Edited December 21, 2017 by AMLinington

[Edu-IT]

When did it all start going seemingly wrong for Smoothwall as it wasn’t too far back that this forum was glowing with praise?

[AMLinington]

When did it all start going seemingly wrong for Smoothwall as it wasn’t too far back that this forum was glowing with praise?

 

Oh I have a fair idea tbh... Around about the time they cared more about Quantity over Quality...

Edited December 21, 2017 by AMLinington

[sparkeh]

When did it all start going seemingly wrong for Smoothwall as it wasn’t too far back that this forum was glowing with praise?

Whilst this isn't company bashing, I just want to share my experience of why we left SW after many years as customer, I hope that its helps the new management to get to grips with things. Of course this is my experience and others may vary.

 

When we first went with SW (and for the next few years) it was an amazing company to deal with. Support was awesome, engineers knew the product inside out and most issues were sorted quickly at 1st line and escalations were dealt with quickly. I recommended SW to many other schools. Whilst it was more expensive than other solution the price was well worth paying.

 

The first thing I noticed was the quality of first line support dropping. The well trained support seemed to me, to be replaced with less well trained operatives who couldn't solve the kind of things the old ones could. Unless an issue could be solved easily it had to be passed up to second line. And then you had to wait. This became a frustrating pattern. Contact between updates became longer and longer and the support became a big issue for us.

 

The other problem for us was the price of the renewal. At our last renewal the price was astronomical. Also the quote had impenetrable lines of licences that needed a phone call to sales for clarification for what we are actually paying for. In comparison, the solution we migrated to had a very clear table of options to choose from and a clear quote at the end. Also it was dramatically cheaper. I made the call to SW sales to discuss price and the account manager dutifully told us about all the benefits of SW but informed us that there was no movement on price. So I ordered another solution and informed SW that we wouldn't be renewing. Lo and behold I was made an improved offer to stay with SW which infuriated me and confirmed our decision to leave.

 

In summary, the problem for us was quality of support and price.

[DrCheese]

Lo and behold I was made an improved offer to stay with SW which infuriated me and confirmed our decision to leave.

I absolutely dispise companies that do this. When I moved home insurance at home the company I was cancelling with told me I should have called them up for a better deal. They should have given me the better deal in the first place! Had it with many companies at work too "Tell me what price I need to beat!" No, you give me your best price & we'll see.

 

My SW renewal is in May & I'm loathe to move away as it's going to be a busy year for us, but I'll look into what else is out there & see. I rarely use the support so I can't comment on that

[AMLinington]

Whilst this isn't company bashing, I just want to share my experience of why we left SW after many years as customer, I hope that its helps the new management to get to grips with things. Of course this is my experience and others may vary.

 

When we first went with SW (and for the next few years) it was an amazing company to deal with. Support was awesome, engineers knew the product inside out and most issues were sorted quickly at 1st line and escalations were dealt with quickly. I recommended SW to many other schools. Whilst it was more expensive than other solution the price was well worth paying.

 

The first thing I noticed was the quality of first line support dropping. The well trained support seemed to me, to be replaced with less well trained operatives who couldn't solve the kind of things the old ones could. Unless an issue could be solved easily it had to be passed up to second line. And then you had to wait. This became a frustrating pattern. Contact between updates became longer and longer and the support became a big issue for us.

 

The other problem for us was the price of the renewal. At our last renewal the price was astronomical. Also the quote had impenetrable lines of licences that needed a phone call to sales for clarification for what we are actually paying for. In comparison, the solution we migrated to had a very clear table of options to choose from and a clear quote at the end. Also it was dramatically cheaper. I made the call to SW sales to discuss price and the account manager dutifully told us about all the benefits of SW but informed us that there was no movement on price. So I ordered another solution and informed SW that we wouldn't be renewing. Lo and behold I was made an improved offer to stay with SW which infuriated me and confirmed our decision to leave.

 

In summary, the problem for us was quality of support and price.

 

I can give you some context for the changes you noticed in support. When I joined the business there were 6 of us in the office. We had relatively few calls per day and so we were able to spend a lot of time on detailed diagnoses. But as the business grew and brought more and more customers on board, we struggled to stay on top of the sheer number of calls we'd get.

 

At this point we were up to something like 10-12 engineers.

 

Now previously we hadn't minded overmuch that customers basically didn't bother to troubleshoot their own issues before calling us, because we had the time and capability. But as more and more customers rang in for simple issues they should have been diagnosing themselves (like issues with their network that were not product-related) we reached the point where we spent more time supporting customers' network setups than actually supporting the product itself. Every minute we spend on the phone costs the business money, so they brought in 'Triage Engineers' which cost the business less than wasting highly skilled 2nd and 3rd line resource on non-product-related calls. So really, you (the customer base at large) really only had yourselves to blame for the decline in support because far too many people made that knee-jerk call to Smoothwall Support because 'teh intertubes r be borked' rather than actually checking their own kit - their switches, DNS, Subnet masks and group policies - I spent 4 hours combing through a customer's Domain controller once because their GROUP POLICY was broken - it had nothing to do with the product at all, but the customer insisted that anything 'internet related' had to be 'Smoothwall's fault'.

 

So Triage engineers were brought in to solve the 'common issues' leaving the engineers with more technical skills to be available for complex network diagnoses.

 

But the problem with this is that all this extra stuff cost money and the original price for the product didn't factor in support costs AT ALL. Smoothwall basically gave customers 'Free support' until it got abused to the point where Support was causing the business to LOSE money. THEN they had to start factoring the cost of support into the product and 'support contracts' and the price of the product rocketed. So it wasn't that they 'suddenly increased the price for no reason', it was because customers abused what was essentially 'Free' support to the point where the business couldn't sustain the loss.

 

I'm certainly no advocate for the company after what they did to me, but as someone who is not an employee, I can tell it how it is, and I can reflect on my own experiences.

[AMLinington]

I absolutely dispise companies that do this. When I moved home insurance at home the company I was cancelling with told me I should have called them up for a better deal. They should have given me the better deal in the first place! Had it with many companies at work too "Tell me what price I need to beat!" No, you give me your best price & we'll see.

 

My SW renewal is in May & I'm loathe to move away as it's going to be a busy year for us, but I'll look into what else is out there & see. I rarely use the support so I can't comment on that

 

LOL Same here. Another thing I LOATHE is when they can't give you a better deal, so they start telling you how rubbish the competitor is. That usually results in me telling them where to go. I hate dirty tricks like that.

[mjk]

Our college had been with Smoothwall since about 2004 or 2005. This year we've bought a Fortigate. Sad to say the support we were getting from smoothwall was getting worse and the fortigate was cheaper with better support.

Smoothwall used to be a really good open source company and it was sad to see them stop contributing to things like dansguardian where their roots lay and go all corporate. They were much better before they were famous.

[davipton]

This absolutely awful for the loyal staff at SW. I'll be keeping a close eye on this as we have less than a year left on our support contract. The same as @DrCheese I have not had to contact support too much (so far!). I guess I'll be adding this to my BETT list to see what is about in readiness for any movement needed.

[Paid_Peanuts]

After getting increasingly frustrated waiting for SW support to contact me back, when our renewal was due I voted with my feet and wen't for an alternative product, despite being offered a better deal when he knew I was serious about leaving.

I believe SW thinks you won't put the effort in and invest time in moving to another solution, SW were very wrong in our case! Sadly for SW, when the schools in our trust come up for renewal they won't be renewing.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Paid_Peanuts

[Blue_Cookeh]

We didn't even get started with Smoothwall, they were quoting literally 4x what our Sophos UTM cost us two or three years ago - it was just a non-starter.

[DrCheese]

The major reason I went with smoothwall years ago was it's 802.11x system for BYOD - Do any competing products offer this? I know Sophos have had it "coming" for ages

[Paid_Peanuts]

The major reason I went with smoothwall years ago was it's 802.11x system for BYOD - Do any competing products offer this? I know Sophos have had it "coming" for ages

 

Sophos = yes it can, XG version anyway

[SpaceInvader83]

I seem to be in the minority but we've been with Smoothwall for years and really like the product, not had much need for support so from what i am reading that is where they fall down, if that is a case it's a shame as the product is great.

[AlanD]

Here is my two penneth worth take on this matter.

 

I use smoothwall - so have some kind of vested interest in their success - not least of all because the kit is new and I've paid for several years worth of upfront support/licence.

 

I don't think its fantastic...although I did think it was the best option for us at the time - the least worst of what was out there (Sophos was a close second choice for us).

 

I think they lost their way by investing a huge amount into a product for "monitoring" PCs (along the lines of impero and others)....and I guessing very few bought into it..not because schools don't need it or wouldn't like it ...just they can't afford it.

 

I think it would have been MUCH better - for the, to have contacted all their end users to tell them what was happening - promising reassuring views on how it will tighten up of and quality of quantity of their support capabilities (even if these promises couldn't be fulfilled).

 

I think they (and this applies to most UTM solutions) need a much more ground breaking and imaginative solution because firewall, filters and BYOD (and possible Email spam and AV filters) are all now tightly bound together (as much as some would wish they were all separate products). As an end user I want to tick a box to "allow Spotify" on BYOD. I don't want to create a load of firewall rules and exception, then separately create various categories and policies for the web filter and then further add customisation on BYOD interception/inspection of https rules. And worse still I don't want to update these various parameters 2 weeks later when Spotify decide to change something. They should be rolling this out automatically to end users as a simple tick box and they should be updating the necessary ingredients to keep it working. Currently it all looks like it did 10 years ago...except now much added to in ways that were not originally envisaged. Get this right...and maybe users would stop complaining about the horrendous cost of smoothwall....and they might get a lot more customers. Schools will and do pay for good stuff...but it has to be really good stuff.....and adding extra bits to a products to support additional functionality does not necessarily add value to it (which is a mistake complaines often make)...those bits just mean that the product will continue to sell at the same price.

Edited December 22, 2017 by AlanD

[tom_newton]

As a very long serving Smoothwall employee, and now back in the fold after a couple of years away, I can tell you that there's not been any talk of outsourcing - I wouldn't have come "home" if the new management team were all about cutting costs.

 

When I left, I won't deny I had my frustrations - certainly it had become harder to support the product, and perhaps some of the ways we went about addressing that weren't perfect. It's my belief, and expectation, that by combining functions into one office we will reduce the number of "silos" in the organisation and customers will feel the difference in our ability to react to support issues. The new investment means we will be freer to address issues "at source" and make the product better - this is Smoothwall maturing as a product and a company. Before making my decision to return I spoke with the new CEO, the new Chairman, the interim CTO, and a number of other members of the management team - I think they have a good vision for Smoothwall, and a focus on education, and my role will be to help deliver that vision.

 

I really feel for my colleagues in Fareham who don't want to move to Leeds - it's a hard situation to be in, and one I have been in myself. The development and support team have been impacted, but have the option to stay with us well into 2018 and we hope they will continue to contribute throughout the transition.

 

As for talk of pricing - we believe we offer an excellent value product and service, and we want too improve on that value. I can assure you that other offerings are occasionally cheaper, and occasionally more expensive, I don't think there's a product out there we've never beaten on price, and been beaten by. It's a funny old game, as they say

 

If anyone wants to have a chat with me about this, my old email address should be operational by now, or come and get hold of me at BETT.

 

I look forward to picking up old friendships and building some new ones.

 

Tom

[tom_newton]

Here is my two penneth worth take on this matter.

 

I use smoothwall - so have some kind of vested interest in their success - not least of all because the kit is new and I've paid for several years worth of upfront support/licence.

 

I don't think its fantastic...although I did think it was the best option for us at the time - the least worst of what was out there (Sophos was a close second).

 

I think they lost their way by investing a huge amount into a product for "monitoring" PCs (along the lines of impero and others)....and I guessing very few bought into it..not because schools don't need it or would like it ...just can't afford it.

 

I think it would have been MUCH better - for the, to have contacted all their end users to tell them what was happening - promising reassuring views on how it will tighten up of and quality of quantity of their support capabilities (even if these promises couldn't be fulfilled).

 

I think they (and this applies to most UTM solutions) need a much more ground breaking and imaginative solution because firewall, filters and BYOD (and possible Email spam and AV filters) are all now tightly bound together (as much as some would wish they were all separate products). As an end user I want to tick a box to "allow Spotify" on BYOD. I don't want to create a load of firewall rules and exception, then separately create various categories and policies for the web filter and then further add customisation on BYOD interception/inspection of https rules. And worse still I don't want to update these various parameters 2 weeks later when Spotify decide to change something. They should be rolling this out automatically to end users as a simple tick box and they should be updating the necessary ingredients to keep it working. Currently it all looks like it did 10 years ago...except now much added to in ways that were not originally envisaged. Get this right...and maybe users would stop complaining about the horrendous cost of smoothwall....and they might get a lot more customers. Schools will and do pay for good stuff...but it has to be really good stuff.....and adding extra bits to a products to support additional functionality does not necessarily add value to it (which is a mistake complaines often make)...those bits just mean that the product will continue to sell at the same price.

 

Some good points here - i'd love to talk to you in the new year about what's important to you from Smoothwall, and indeed what's not!

[gshaw]

@tom_newton how's the new categories you were working on for G-Suite etc. coming along? Definitely need more automated rule sets for common cloud services as the current ones seem a bit patchy in terms of what they cover. @AlanD hit the nail on the head with that one I think.

[DrCheese]

Yes - The ability to just tick "Allow Spotify" or "Allow skype" would make life like.. a billion times more easier!

[tom_newton]

@tom_newton how's the new categories you were working on for G-Suite etc. coming along? Definitely need more automated rule sets for common cloud services as the current ones seem a bit patchy in terms of what they cover. @AlanD hit the nail on the head with that one I think.

 

I will find out...

[tom_newton]

I will find out...

 

It's built, but there's been some consternation regarding changing the name of a category (it extends a category we used to use for internal purposes) so it's delayed the release. Should be out real soon now.

[discoveranother]

Here is my two penneth worth take on this matter.

 

I use smoothwall - so have some kind of vested interest in their success - not least of all because the kit is new and I've paid for several years worth of upfront support/licence.

 

I don't think its fantastic...although I did think it was the best option for us at the time - the least worst of what was out there (Sophos was a close second choice for us).

 

I think they lost their way by investing a huge amount into a product for "monitoring" PCs (along the lines of impero and others)....and I guessing very few bought into it..not because schools don't need it or wouldn't like it ...just they can't afford it.

 

I think it would have been MUCH better - for the, to have contacted all their end users to tell them what was happening - promising reassuring views on how it will tighten up of and quality of quantity of their support capabilities (even if these promises couldn't be fulfilled).

 

I think they (and this applies to most UTM solutions) need a much more ground breaking and imaginative solution because firewall, filters and BYOD (and possible Email spam and AV filters) are all now tightly bound together (as much as some would wish they were all separate products). As an end user I want to tick a box to "allow Spotify" on BYOD. I don't want to create a load of firewall rules and exception, then separately create various categories and policies for the web filter and then further add customisation on BYOD interception/inspection of https rules. And worse still I don't want to update these various parameters 2 weeks later when Spotify decide to change something. They should be rolling this out automatically to end users as a simple tick box and they should be updating the necessary ingredients to keep it working. Currently it all looks like it did 10 years ago...except now much added to in ways that were not originally envisaged. Get this right...and maybe users would stop complaining about the horrendous cost of smoothwall....and they might get a lot more customers. Schools will and do pay for good stuff...but it has to be really good stuff.....and adding extra bits to a products to support additional functionality does not necessarily add value to it (which is a mistake complaines often make)...those bits just mean that the product will continue to sell at the same price.

 

 

 

Very good point this Alan. I have been with Smoothwall for a couple of years now and find their policy for allowing websites so long-winded. I have been saying from day one I just want to be able to tick or untick a box, or add in a web address to allow, not be creating loads of policies for this and that. I remember having a demo from RM around the time we have already chosen Smoothwall and the RM demo of their filtering was so straight-forward, tick or untick or add in what you want.

[DGardiner]

Very good point this Alan. I have been with Smoothwall for a couple of years now and find their policy for allowing websites so long-winded. I have been saying from day one I just want to be able to tick or untick a box, or add in a web address to allow, not be creating loads of policies for this and that. I remember having a demo from RM around the time we have already chosen Smoothwall and the RM demo of their filtering was so straight-forward, tick or untick or add in what you want.

 

uh, quick block/quick allow? if you just want an easy allow list there you have it?

 

the point of the policies is so its granular?

[discoveranother]

uh, quick block/quick allow? if you just want an easy allow list there you have it?

 

the point of the policies is so its granular?

 

Not just that, their customer service is crap

[E_G_R2]

uh, quick block/quick allow? if you just want an easy allow list there you have it?

 

the point of the policies is so its granular?

 

Yep we have kids age 7 to 18 in a boarding situation (home from home) and via policies allow age dependent access based on AD groups etc..

 

Bit of a Faff setting up but so far so good.

 

Customer service - well lets just say I had to make a complaint but that did the trick for my last call.