Freedom of Information request

[synaesthesia]

One of the things to bear in mind is that most people will be of the opinion that if it's important, it'll get through to us in another fashion.

[bmaloney]

One of the things to bear in mind is that most people will be of the opinion that if it's important, it'll get through to us in another fashion.

 

I suggest you have a look at this FOI request: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/refusing_email_foi_requests . I can't find any decision notices on the ICO website, but they council pretty quickly changed their tune. Interestingly they say:

 

"We have at no stage whatsoever deliberately sought to prevent FOI requests being made and believe the E-Form solution (that is prominently displayed on the South Ribble Borough Council's website) is a form of electronic mail and is designed to improve our ability to provide an efficient service."

[synaesthesia]

That has absolutely no relevance to what I said.

 

Interesting reading though.... "We shouldn't have to use their form".

 

Works both ways, doesn't it?

Edited March 19, 2018 by synaesthesia

[bmaloney]

If it's important and sent by email, how else is it supposed to get through, snail mail?

[synaesthesia]

Why not? If it gets caught up in spam because everyone gets annoyed at your requests and starts reporting you to email blacklists (very possible) therefore the majority of email providers instantly filter them to junk/spam.

It wouldn't hold up.

[bmaloney]

That has absolutely no relevance to what I said.

 

Interesting reading though.... "We shouldn't have to use their form".

 

Works both ways, doesn't it?

 

You've misunderstood the exchange. The council had received the request by email, but deemed it invalid because it hadn't been submitted through the form. Once you've received the request, you can't ignore it because it came through a medium you don't want to support. What they do say is they consider a webform an address for correspondence.

[DJ-1701]

If it's important and sent by email, how else is it supposed to get through, snail mail?

 

*Ring* Hello, I was wondering if you got my e-mail, sent to X on Y? You haven't? Let me send it again. Has it appeared now? Good. Thanks very much for your time, I can understand how hectic and overly burdened institutions can be. Have a great day!

[synaesthesia]

You've misunderstood the exchange. The council had received the request by email, but deemed it invalid because it hadn't been submitted through the form. Once you've received the request, you can't ignore it because it came through a medium you don't want to support. What they do say is they consider a webform an address for correspondence.

 

Afraid not. I was talking about email being filtered as spam which has zero relevance.

[Garacesh]

If it's important and sent by email, how else is it supposed to get through, snail mail?

 

Could do, yeah. Physical addresses are considerably less likely to change than email addresses, no? You can even go signed for, if you like (sure, email can do read receipts, but most email handlers will reject/ignore that these days.)

 

Of course, depending on how deep your pockets are, that probably stops you being able to send it to every school in the country. But on such a grand scale like this you've got to except a few hiccoughs.

When you're sending the same thing to >20,000 recipients with I-don't-know-how-old data that's susceptible to change, you cannot reasonably expect every single one will be received.

 

You've misunderstood the exchange. The council had received the request by email, but deemed it invalid because it hadn't been submitted through the form. Once you've received the request, you can't ignore it because it came through a medium you don't want to support. What they do say is they consider a webform an address for correspondence.

You're not getting this. Yes you can because you haven't followed the rules (namely provide a method of correspondence). The ICO were asked for their input, if they say it's invalid, it's invalid. No but's!

Your appeal means nothing until a decision has been made. The ICO has said it's invalid, it's invalid until someone above them says otherwise. They have not said otherwise yet. They may not say otherwise at all.

It doesn't matter how any of us, or you, feel about the legitimacy of the request. Even someone that feels your request is legitimate is overruled by the ICO.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Garacesh
typos

[bmaloney]

*Ring* Hello, I was wondering if you got my e-mail, sent to X on Y? You haven't? Let me send it again. Has it appeared now? Good. Thanks very much for your time, I can understand how hectic and overly burdened institutions can be. Have a great day!

 

Ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, "hello, you've reach so and so school, we can't answer your call right now, please leave us a message, or email us your query". OK, I've just spent 30 seconds on the phone to a single school, I guess I'll email them, or perhaps I'll leave them a message and wait for them to call me back, occupying my time and their time. Hey, 20,000 school at 30 seconds each, that's only 21 working days on the phone finding out if the school has received my email. Or I could email them and ask them to respond, handle the responses automatically and save everyone hours on the phone, plus my phone bill, and potentially theirs, not counting the number of schools who might phone me back and find I'm engaged because another school is already on the phone to me.

 

No thank you.

[synaesthesia]

So you see catch 22.

 

Like I said earlier, it's funny how much work you could probably have done in the time it's taken you to whinge and moan on these forums. You don't want to work for the results.

[DJ-1701]

Ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, "hello, you've reach so and so school, we can't answer your call right now, please leave us a message, or email us your query". OK, I've just spent 30 seconds on the phone to a single school, I guess I'll email them, or perhaps I'll leave them a message and wait for them to call me back, occupying my time and their time. Hey, 20,000 school at 30 seconds each, that's only 21 working days on the phone finding out if the school has received my email. Or I could email them and ask them to respond, handle the responses automatically and save everyone hours on the phone, plus my phone bill, and potentially theirs, not counting the number of schools who might phone me back and find I'm engaged because another school is already on the phone to me.

 

No thank you.

 

Well... I guess at least you didn't spend £11,200.00 on 2nd Class postage stamps...

[elsiegee40]

So you see catch 22.

 

Like I said earlier, it's funny how much work you could probably have done in the time it's taken you to whinge and moan on these forums. You don't want to work for the results.

 

There are processes laid out in the FoI law and guidance for dealing with vexatious requests... many separate requests from a single individual towards a single organisation may count as vexatious... nowhere does it say “just delete them or send them to spam”

 

Schools are professional organisations spending public money.

 

If requests are vexatious there are professional and legal ways of dealing with them.

 

Yes, some requests may erroneously end up in spam or be missed. The response, when the organisation has its attention drawn to its failure to respond to a non vexatious request, should be “Whoops. Here’s the data” and the requester will probably forgive.

Edited March 20, 2018 by elsiegee40

[synaesthesia]

Absolutely, however it's nearly impossible to govern. Hence saying "If it's important, the person requesting that information will find another method of contact"; that could be a follow up call or letter mentioning a request was set at x time on y day, could be please be actioned as the deadline has passed and it's possible it may have found it's way into your junk filter.

[Edutech98]

What I don't understand @bmaloney is why you can't just get the data back on Excel and create a script to extract the data into what ever web form you want? You clearly have the technical capabilities to do this.

 

 

As a separated parent I battled in the family court system for 2 years to see my children. Even know with a court order in place its a royal pain to get schools to send letter etc so I'm fully in support of what you are trying to achieve.

 

The problem is I feel you've lost touch with what you are actually trying to achieve, its turned into your own personal quest and you don't actual care about the children, parents or schools. They just happen to be an outlet for you to create conflict.

 

If you truly cared, make it as easy as possible for the schools to give you the data, then take the data, and fight a worthwhile battle rather than wasting peoples time arguing over whether a web form counts as communication or not!

[hardtailstar]

And in turn making more work for you and schools.

 

@bmaloney Out of interest, are you keeping this FOI going until you get a response from all schools contacted?

 

@bmaloney could you answer the above as I dont think my school has received your request. So i'd like to warn the member of staff that has the contact email.

[bmaloney]

What I don't understand @bmaloney is why you can't just get the data back on Excel and create a script to extract the data into what ever web form you want? You clearly have the technical capabilities to do this.

 

 

As a separated parent I battled in the family court system for 2 years to see my children. Even know with a court order in place its a royal pain to get schools to send letter etc so I'm fully in support of what you are trying to achieve.

 

The problem is I feel you've lost touch with what you are actually trying to achieve, its turned into your own personal quest and you don't actual care about the children, parents or schools. They just happen to be an outlet for you to create conflict.

 

If you truly cared, make it as easy as possible for the schools to give you the data, then take the data, and fight a worthwhile battle rather than wasting peoples time arguing over whether a web form counts as communication or not!

 

Actually I did make it pretty easy, and over 4000 schools have successfully responded by the means I provided. If you've read this thread in its entirety you'll find there are people who enjoy filling in the template, then converting it to PDF and sending that back. Then you would have those who reject an excel file attached to an email because of the security risks.

 

I don't understand how you think I'm creating conflict by asking schools to disclose data they hold under the FOIA, that's just the purpose of the FOIA isn't it, making public authorities provide the data they hold? Isn't this how public authorities are held to account?

[bmaloney]

@bmaloney could you answer the above as I dont think my school has received your request. So i'd like to warn the member of staff that has the contact email.

 

I'd like a response from every school I've sent a request to please. Otherwise I wouldn't have sent a request.

[DJ-1701]

Actually I did make it pretty easy, and over 4000 schools have successfully responded by the means I provided. If you've read this thread in its entirety you'll find there are people who enjoy filling in the template, then converting it to PDF and sending that back. Then you would have those who reject an excel file attached to an email because of the security risks.

 

1) There was only one person that said that, and others said the behaviour was akin to childish. I for one agree.

 

2) The people that are going to be responding to your FOI would in the vast majority of cases not even think about that, they wouldn't have the technical know how to know that was a hindrance to someone.

 

3) A file attachment can at least be scanned before loading and if it had a macro would not be enabled by default, the person will be asked.

[Edutech98]

You'll always get a few that make it difficult for you by changing it to a pdf etc, that's just the nature of FOI request. But the vast majority of schools will provide the data to you. They want to help make the school better, they are not against you they are with you.

 

I'm fully in support of your FOI request, honestly mate I couldn't support it more if I tried, but your creating conflict by insisting that the school use the form. You seem more bothered about the form than the actual data.

 

You've had clear feedback from professionals working in schools telling you the issue with filling out the web form. To name a few, they have said it takes them longer to do and the security concern of telling people to click on links they know nothing about.

 

You have the technical abilities to change this without creating substantial work for yourself.

 

Go and fight for real change to really help people. You really want to spend your time arguing if a web form is a legitimate method of communication or not?

Edited March 19, 2018 by elsiegee40

[sparkeh]

You're not getting this. Yes you can because you haven't followed the rules (namely provide a method of correspondence). The ICO were asked for their input, if they say it's invalid, it's invalid. No but's!

Your appeal means nothing until a decision has been made. The ICO has said it's invalid, it's invalid until someone above them says otherwise. They have not said otherwise yet. They may not say otherwise at all.

It doesn't matter how any of us, or you, feel about the legitimacy of the request. Even someone that feels your request is legitimate is overruled by the ICO.

This of course is true. But you won't get a reply because there is no argument against it so let's argue about webforms instead

[alexsanger]

FWIW One school I support forwarded your mail to me as they thought it was a scam. It does look highly suspect on first sight. I would suggest a little more background information to the request might make people a little more inclined to assist you in your project. This is, afterall, a project you are undertaking for your own purposes. I know the legislation says you don't HAVE to provide a reason for your request, but that's not to say that you shouldn't.

 

With the data that's been requested and the manner in which it has been requested, I believe the school are intending to decline on the basis of the request being vexatious, or possibly too time consuming. I, btw, provided no guidance other than to confirm that, despite appearances, it was a genuine request.

[elsiegee40]

 

EduGeeks are reminded that personal attack is never permitted in threads and posts flaming others will be edited or removed.

 

Please report any instances rather than making any disagreement worse.

 

The Political Forum guidelines are just as valid on other parts of EduGeek.

 

Now please keep the conversation professional. There is much useful to be learned by both school employees and those requesting FoI information and we would like that to continue.

 

Edited March 19, 2018 by elsiegee40

[bmaloney]

There are processes laid out in the FoI law and guidance for dealing with vexatious requests... many separate requests from a single individual may count as vexatious.

 

I think the intention here was to stop one person making many requests to the same public authority to cause that public authority a nuisance. How are you supposed to get information from many different public authorities without making a request to each of them?

[elsiegee40]

I think the intention here was to stop one person making many requests to the same public authority to cause that public authority a nuisance. How are you supposed to get information from many different public authorities without making a request to each of them?

 

I agree. Sorry I did not make that clear and will go back and edit my post.

 

Making many requests to a single entity may be seen as vexatious. Making the same request to many entities is not.

Edited March 20, 2018 by elsiegee40