elsiegee40 Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 We do this as our trust is HUGE, although it's not a "number of female staff" etc, it's a staff list where you would have to count up and total for each gender yourself. Not that it matters for this as FOIA doesn't apply for us (Independent). The data is there. It just needs to be reformatted. It would be a legitimate redirect for those subject to FoI
LeMarchand Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 We do this as our trust is HUGE, although it's not a "number of female staff" etc, it's a staff list where you would have to count up and total for each gender yourself. Not that it matters for this as FOIA doesn't apply for us (Independent). I think most school sites have this (may not always be 100% up to date!). Of course, there may be a few that have "either/or" names not to mention some that don't identify as either of the "traditional" (for want of a better word) genders. Does the OP's form factor this in?
elsiegee40 Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 The whole gender question is blurred by gender identity and transitioning issues anyway. "Are people employed by the school male or female?" isn't such a simple question... any more than assuming that every child has identifiable birth parents that are one male and one female. 2
enjay Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 And surely - one solution to this is for schools to start publishing their current staff count / gender split of staff on their website - some of the the request would then contain information that was already publicly available, and those bits of the request would be done to the requestor to look up themselves. After all - surely the purpose of the FOI was to encourage public bodies to make information publically available for ALL - and schools making more data available would be a good outcome. Perhaps, but you can't expect schools to proactively post all the information which might be requested under FOIA. I've seen some very bizarre things asked for before!
sparkeh Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 Nobody is stopping them replying The thing stopping schools replying (putting the LAs that you have an issue with aside) is the rules. You know, the invalid request that you submitted, the rules that you are required to follow too. schools are saying the ICO tells them not to click on the link. I don't think that is true. The ICO is advising schools that the request is invalid and that security concerns are a valid reason not to click the link. That is a very different position that you are trying to characterise. I think the ICO are afraid it'll cause them more work when schools leak data inadvertently by clicking on links in emails Laughably incorrect. The ICO is concerned with the application of the rules. The ones you didn't follow when submitting the invalid request. 1
enjay Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) Schools are being deliberately awkward, assisted by the Local Authorities, they are concocting reasons not to provide the data. This is not the purpose of the Act. Okay, let's assume the ICO rules we should respond, and let's assume each school you contact knows how to pull the raw (and meaningless) numbers from their MIS. Complying with your request could take a few hours, so what you're asking for is publicly-funded - and already under-resourced - organisations to spend 75,000 hours (or if you would prefer, perhaps £750,000) compiling data for a currently-unknown purpose. I personally don't think that is the purpose of the Act either. I'll be honest with you. I can see the motivation behind your request, but I don't think a sizeable FOI request to 20,000 schools followed by a lengthy argument on a forum is the way to achieve it. Approach a smaller number of schools, explain your case and see if they would be willing to give you an hour to discuss the matter. You can then formulate your advice and recommendations to whoever you're going to present your findings to. This will take the schools less time, it will take you less time and I think the outcome would actually be more productive as you would have a clearer understanding of the battle schools face getting information from some families, the complexities of family situations and the various non-standard situations which would distort the numbers in our responses (adopted children, dead parents, voluntarily-absent parents, children with same-sex parents, and so on). Edited March 22, 2018 by enjay
bmaloney Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 We do this as our trust is HUGE, although it's not a "number of female staff" etc, it's a staff list where you would have to count up and total for each gender yourself. Not that it matters for this as FOIA doesn't apply for us (Independent). Errrmm FOIA does apply to your trust, you perform a public function with public money Freedom of Information Act 2000
Katy Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 Errrmm FOIA does apply to your trust, you perform a public function with public money Freedom of Information Act 2000 As I said we're an independent school, "ermmmm" no public funding = no FOIA. It applies to the academies and the parts of the central structure which are funded through the academies. 4
bmaloney Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 As I said we're an independent school, "ermmmm" no public funding = no FOIA. It applies to the academies and the parts of the central structure which are funded through the academies. Take your point, so you won't be included, although PR does apply, so you should have policies to deal with separated parents.
bmaloney Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 ... You can then formulate your advice and recommendations to whoever you're going to present your findings to. This will take the schools less time, it will take you less time and I think the outcome would actually be more productive as you would have a clearer understanding of the battle schools face getting information from some families, the complexities of family situations and the various non-standard situations which would distort the numbers in our responses (adopted children, dead parents, voluntarily-absent parents, children with same-sex parents, and so on). Same sex families with dependent children account for 10,000 families across the whole UK, out of 6,195,000 total families with dependent children, that's 0.16% https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/families/bulletins/familiesandhouseholds/2017#multi-family-households-have-grown-the-fastest-but-which-household-type-is-the-most-common-in-the-uk Do schools record voluntary absent parents? How would you know that parent was voluntarily absent? There are about 70,000 looked after children in England, that would represent about 80% of the total looked after population. Since 700,000 children are born in the UK each year (16*700,000 children in UK in total = 11.2m), this represents less than 1% and would affect both records for mothers and fathers equally. Deceased parents is more complicated because fathers tend to be older and therefore there will be more deceased fathers than mothers in the school population. But it's still a small effect, certainly at primary school level. Would have a larger effect at secondary school level.
enjay Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 Take your point, so you won't be included, although PR does apply, so you should have policies to deal with separated parents. Perhaps true, but they don't have to tell you their policy :-) 1
bmaloney Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 Perhaps true, but they don't have to tell you their policy :-) No, but if they only get consent for school trips or medical treatment from one parent and the other doesn't agree, if something happens to the child they can be sued. So they should take it seriously and make sure staff know how to handle separated parents. 1
enjay Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 Do schools record voluntary absent parents? How would you know that parent was voluntarily absent? I can't speak for all schools, but we wouldn't record a voluntarily absent parent in a way which would easily come out in the kind of report we'd run to comply with your request. Nor would the report show those families where we're trying to get the details but are being blocked by the parent who the child lives with. These would both show as "father not listed" which would add fuel to your fire but not accurately reflect the truth. There are about 70,000 looked after children in England, that would represent about 80% of the total looked after population. Since 700,000 children are born in the UK each year (16*700,000 children in UK in total = 11.2m), this represents less than 1% and would affect both records for mothers and fathers equally. So that's a further 1% of records which would support your case when the truth is something different. Deceased parents is more complicated because fathers tend to be older and therefore there will be more deceased fathers than mothers in the school population. But it's still a small effect, certainly at primary school level. Would have a larger effect at secondary school level. So by your own admission, that's going to distort the numbers too. It will distort them in favour of the point you're trying to make though... Are you starting to see why I saw your questions are flawed? 1
enjay Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 No, but if they only get consent for school trips or medical treatment from one parent and the other doesn't agree, if something happens to the child they can be sued. So they should take it seriously and make sure staff know how to handle separated parents. Who says they're not taking it seriously? They might have amazing policies in place, all I said is they don't need to tell you about them. 1
Garacesh Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 No, but if they only get consent for school trips or medical treatment from one parent and the other doesn't agree, if something happens to the child they can be sued. So they should take it seriously and make sure staff know how to handle separated parents. I'm quite certain they do take it seriously, however, they are not answerable to you, nor do they have to prove to you that they take it seriously. 1
enjay Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 No, but if they only get consent for school trips or medical treatment from one parent and the other doesn't agree, if something happens to the child they can be sued. Hold up, if that's true (I don't know either way, not my area) surely it would apply to ALL students, not just those who live with only one natural parent. Are you saying we need two signatures on every permission slip? 1
Katy Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 No, but if they only get consent for school trips or medical treatment from one parent and the other doesn't agree, if something happens to the child they can be sued. So they should take it seriously and make sure staff know how to handle separated parents. I'm not going to go looking for the policy, I manage the network I don't have anything to do with those sorts of policies, however I'm sure one exists and we get consent from (and when sending communications out it goes to) both parents unless there is a court order preventing us from contacting one of the parents. (That's another thing to add into the mix which may confuse the data even more)
djrscally Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 Hold up, if that's true (I don't know either way, not my area) surely it would apply to ALL students, not just those who live with only one natural parent. Are you saying we need two signatures on every permission slip? Only the resident parent's consent is needed, unless it's a matter of "long term and significant impact" orthe separated parent has specifically asked for their consent not to be inferred. If that's the case, you have to specifically ask them. EDIT: Gov's guidance here: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/489901/Parental_Responsibility_Advice_for_School_January_2016.pdf 1
Edutech98 Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 Hold up, if that's true (I don't know either way, not my area) surely it would apply to ALL students, not just those who live with only one natural parent. Are you saying we need two signatures on every permission slip? It's not true mate! Neither parent with parental responsibility holds a more superior opinion, regardless of who the child lives with. If a person with parental responsibility consents, the school can act upon that as there is no law to say all people with parental responsibility must consent. If one person with PR decide to challenge the other person and they can't come to an agreement, they can apply for a prohibited steps order to prevent the person from doing something (or enforce them to do something). In that case, the school may wish to wait until the outcome of the prohibited steps to make their decision. 1
enjay Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 Only the resident parent's consent is needed, unless it's a matter of "long term and significant impact" orthe separated parent has specifically asked for their consent not to be inferred. If that's the case, you have to specifically ask them. Thanks, that makes sense. Although of course it does somewhat rain on the first question on the FOI request!
djrscally Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 Thanks, that makes sense. Although of course it does somewhat rain on the first question on the FOI request! Does it? Which bit? I thought the first question was specifically targeted at seeing if we comply with that guidance actually.
bmaloney Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 Who says they're not taking it seriously? They might have amazing policies in place, all I said is they don't need to tell you about them. I know, I was making a point in a discussion. From my research many schools only ask the "primary carer" even when the parents are separated, which means they are putting themselves at risk. Maybe that will help schools or maybe they will continue with their current practice, I don't know, but if you don't know what they're doing you can't ask them to do something different, can you?
enjay Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 Does it? Which bit? I thought the first question was specifically targeted at seeing if we comply with that guidance actually. The question is asking whether we have practices in place to ensure all parents are treated equally, but it sounds like we don't need to, we only need the consent of one person with PR. Or is it that we only need one for medical consent, but should strive to have both for parents evenings, etc.? Obviously, having both is preferable and would avoid that horrible story from last year when some children were home alone with a dead parent.
enjay Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 but if you don't know what they're doing you can't ask them to do something different, can you? Of course you can. You can say "some schools are doing X, I would like them to be doing Y instead" and they can say to themselves "that's fine, we already do Y". Those schools who were doing X or Z could say to themselves "he's got a point, Y does seem sensible, let's do that from now on".
Edutech98 Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 You would still want practises in place to ensure all parents are treated equally though, for example can both parents book parents evening, can both parents be given newsletters, text messages etc. This is more about what the school does to engage both parents which evidence suggests will improve the life chances of the child rather than deciding who can consent.
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