Freedom of Information request

[Achandler]

I would suggest you take the responses from the school's that haven't checked or aren't as bothered by your request being sent how it and make do.

 

I would also suggest like most FOI requests the information will be a case of making stats show what you want them too and any that don't prove the point will be ignored. As much as I would hope everyone published the facts, in reality they don't sadly.

 

I hope the information proves what ever your personal crusade is and then you can continue to argue schools and the education is bias against x, y and z and it's all because there is but enough male/ female teachers/ support staff (delete as appropriate).

 

Schools have enough things to concentrate on and having less money to do it, so why not burden them with another agenda.

[minimoo]

@bmaloney whilst the discussion on FOI/ICO is interesting, and i've just spent 10 minutes reading all the responses today, and debate about the cost of FOI requests. I'd like to try and steer conversation briefly to what I thought (in my mind at least) i'd tried last night.

 

I assume you are collecting this data as you think/want a change in what the DfE / SChool's / LA's do around parents. I know that the DfE have issued occasional guidance for schools ( January 2016 - understanding and dealing with issues relating to parental responsibility for instance), and i'm sure I remember another document.

 

In terms of changes to law, those would obviously need to go through the appropriate process - however, are there things you would like to see schools doing 'now' that you believe schools could be doing now, without falling on the wrong side of existing advice/law. My reason for asking is with the GDPR and school's taking a look at their policies around data, it would be good to hear suggestions... At least, I'm assuming that there is a purpose for a change behind the data collection...

[bmaloney]

I would suggest you take the responses from the school's that haven't checked or aren't as bothered by your request being sent how it and make do.

 

I would also suggest like most FOI requests the information will be a case of making stats show what you want them too and any that don't prove the point will be ignored. As much as I would hope everyone published the facts, in reality they don't sadly.

 

I hope the information proves what ever your personal crusade is and then you can continue to argue schools and the education is bias against x, y and z and it's all because there is but enough male/ female teachers/ support staff (delete as appropriate).

 

Schools have enough things to concentrate on and having less money to do it, so why not burden them with another agenda.

 

Manchester - 40% of schools responded. One of the better LAs.

[FN-GM]

@bmaloney I am curious to know how you got a bulk list of all the schools email addresses?

[minimoo]

@bmaloney I am curious to know how you got a bulk list of all the schools email addresses?

 

Those are available from FOI to the DfE - there's 23699 email addresses in the file at https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/list_of_all_public_email_address .

[Blue_Cookeh]

Those are available from FOI to the DfE - there's 23699 email addresses in the file at https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/list_of_all_public_email_address .

 

lol that file has an e-mail address for our school that hasn't existed for 10+ years!

[LeMarchand]

If they involved their parents the children would do better and it would cost less to educate them. There's a potentially huge benefit here that involving your parents, letting them all know they are valuable and influential in their children's education might reap huge rewards and benefit the children.

 

If this is genuinely your aim, you'd be better off trying to engage parents rather than firing off FOI requests to schools and taking their time and money. I've never worked at a school that has had good parental involvement. There are always a core of good 'uns, but most just don't have the time or can't be bothered. When I occasionally help out on the front desk, I'm always amazed that many parents (especially the males) don't know which class their child belongs to. Some don't even know the year!

[enjay]

Thanks to @TechMonkey and @minimoo for bringing this back to a more constructive topic (or perhaps for giving up on discussing the validity of the request). Somewhere behind the FOI request is a genuine concern - some schools may not be doing enough to engage those parents who don't live with their children. So @bmaloney please can you tell us what you're looking to prove/find out here (both in general and from the seemingly left-field questions about gender of support staff), with who and how you intend to share your findings, and how you envisage this changing how schools operate?

[Achandler]

As stated multiple times I don't work in a school anymore and haven't actually ever worked in a Manchester but thanks for assuming. 40% as a response rate isn't really an overwhelming response but base figures on less then 40% of schools, makes the figures you work with even worse.

[elsiegee40]

As stated multiple times I don't work in a school anymore and haven't actually ever worked in a Manchester but thanks for assuming. 40% as a response rate isn't really an overwhelming response but base figures on less then 40% of schools, makes the figures you work with even worse.

 

40% of 23000 schools is a statistically significant figure. It’s enough to do data analysis on.

[Ditto]

I think it was 40% of Manchester, but I get the feeling there is still enough responses to be statistically significant. @bmaloney, could you confirm what number of all the schools you have contacted have replied in a way that satisfies your request. A breakdown by LA would be interesting to see.

[Achandler]

And such is the problem with the modern world, while statisically it is a large number it is not good enough to prove anything and that was a better authorities response. This isn't a L'Oreal (other brands are available) advert where they can claim 95% of users agree, but the number of users is significantly small.

 

As I said, I'm sure no matter the requestor (who may or may not be the poster), will be able to use the statistics to successfully prove something. I've no idea what and having come from a background with seperate parents it made no difference if the parents were or weren't both involved, then there becomes the question of what "involved" means. How can you prove that one with parents engaged have better outcomes when there is so nany other variations, I also don't know. As you can have all the parents details, but some will be ivnovled and others won't care.

[elsiegee40]

 

Can we keep this thread on topic please.

 

The FoI request is its subject.

 

We will not let it diverge into a wider debate on statistical significance which is where we risk it heading.

 

[mavhc]

It's probably not statistically useful, as the sample isn't random, it's schools that chose to reply. Better would be to pick 1000 schools and do everything you can to get them to reply, personal involvement, not just trying to get large numbers.

 

Does seem like the methodology of FOI requests in general is: get a large amount of data, use it to pitch a story to the newspapers about your cause

[enjay]

The FoI request is its subject.

 

We will not let it diverge into a wider debate on statistical significance which is where we risk it heading.

 

@elsiegee40 can we also discuss the potential flaws in the analysis though, especially since we have the rare opportunity of having the ear of the requester? As you say, discussing statistical validity won't help (as hopefully anyone reading his research would know about that anyway) but I think it would be beneficial to raise comments such as (off the top of my head):

 

* potential distortion due to second parent being "absent" due to death or possibly not being known at all (e.g. rape victim or one-night-stand), or absent through choice

* the supposition parents being more involved has a direct correlation on student performance

* the supposition parents who live with the child are engaged and involved

[DGardiner]

lol that file has an e-mail address for our school that hasn't existed for 10+ years!

 

it looks like an edubase export, that was the head teacher/schools responsibility to keep up to date, iirc its been replaced with a new thing anyway now probably still the schools responsibility to maintain though

[Ditto]

The 'new thing' is the catchily titled 'Get Information About Schools' - or equally awkwardly GIAS.

[djrscally]

it looks like an edubase export, that was the head teacher/schools responsibility to keep up to date, iirc its been replaced with a new thing anyway now probably still the schools responsibility to maintain though

 

Yeah it's now GIAS. And as the way they remind you to maintain it is by disabling your access to Secure Access, K2S and S2S unless you click "Yes this is up to date" every couple months I'm guessing that most people just hit that button when they need to get into those systems.

 

Not that I do that of course...

[elsiegee40]

@elsiegee40 can we also discuss the potential flaws in the analysis though, especially since we have the rare opportunity of having the ear of the requester? As you say, discussing statistical validity won't help (as hopefully anyone reading his research would know about that anyway) but I think it would be beneficial to raise comments such as (off the top of my head):

 

* potential distortion due to second parent being "absent" due to death or possibly not being known at all (e.g. rape victim or one-night-stand), or absent through choice

* the supposition parents being more involved has a direct correlation on student performance

* the supposition parents who live with the child are engaged and involved

 

I have no problem as long as it stays with this topic. I am trying to avoid coming back to 5 pages of detailed arguments on statistical theory. I know you lot too well

 

Without further contribution from bmaloney, arguments are based on guesses as to what he may, or may not, intend to achieve. Debating assumptions that may well be wrong isn’t useful.

[enjay]

Without further contribution from bmaloney, arguments are based on guesses as to what he may, or may not, intend to achieve. Debating assumptions that may well be wrong isn’t useful.

 

Agreed. I posted that in the hope @bmaloney would engage in the discussion. If he doesn't, you're right there isn't much more useful to be said (and the thread might indeed benefit from being locked!)

[enjay]

The 'new thing' is the catchily titled 'Get Information About Schools' - or equally awkwardly GIAS.

 

Unless I'm missing something, that doesn't have email addresses on it, just website.

[bmaloney]

So if I manage to get a response to you via carrier pigeon, that is a valid response? Just because people can, does not make it valid. I can write my passwords on a post-it note, doesn't make it correct and the proper thing to do. It is shortsighted using a method that is not valid, when you could have used a valid email and saved everyone's time and effort, if you could have done, why didn't you? You are admitting you are making schools jump through hoops for your own amusement. Yes they will still have wasted their time fulfilling your request but it would have been a valid request so they will have had to.

Saving myself 200 days of work, 8 hours a day is not for my own amusement. There are very good reasons to constrain the response, for instance the form ensures that answers requiring a numerical response are actually natural numbers. If I didn't do that I would get a mixture of numbers and words such as Zero, 5, Nine, three, None, 12, etc. Now technically that's correct, but it requires human intervention to convert it to something useful. Whereas the school could actually have used a number to respond to a question requiring a number as a response, but perhaps they do this for their own amusement?

[Ditto]

Yeah it's now GIAS. And as the way they remind you to maintain it is by disabling your access to Secure Access, K2S and S2S unless you click "Yes this is up to date" every couple months I'm guessing that most people just hit that button when they need to get into those systems.

Not that I do that of course...

 

Thoroughly check every detail every time!

[FN-GM]

I don't understand why everyone is up in arms about this. It might be an inconvenience yes, but at the end of the day people are entitled to ask. It comes with working in this industry.

 

@bmaloney shouldn't be made to justify the request or be made to feel like he is in the wrong. If you don't agree with the whole Freedom of Information act as a whole, I don't think here is right place to vent that.

[Steve21]

I don't understand why everyone is up in arms about this. It might be an inconvenience yes, but at the end of the day people are entitled to ask. It comes with working in this industry.

 

I'm guessing you skipped the part where he's trying to force schools to use his automated system to respond rather than a valid FOI request.

 

Because "his time" is precious and every school should change how they respond and act including the ICO because they're all wrong and he's correct

 

As I said above people are entitled to ask "using the way the ICO said" and hundreds of businesses do, but it's not for all of us to change how we respond just to please him or so he can save his own time in making reports etc

 

Steve